To think the 'Troubles Northern Ireland 1969-1997' ensured the Grammar system stayed in operation In Northern Ireland, thus is now the best education system in the United Kingdom.

Selective memory or what OP. I came off a Californian 'banana boat' in the 70s, passed the 11+ and went to a Grammar that was phased out during my education purely because the Govt of the time thought it was a brill idea. I believe it was a Labour govt at the time.

And fuck me sideways - but the very same 'boys version' of My School became an Independent School that a Son of a Toolmaker and a Nurse went to at the very same time.

Now there's a bit of Social Mobility that I think we should all revisit.

I wondered if Northern Ireland had better attendance rates than the UK but we're worse apparently:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-67158024

Sorry, my own point of reference on this thread was focused at the latter stages where the approaches most diverge. At 15, there's still quite a way to go in secondary education.

As for the England comparison, how do NI A level outcomes compare to England I wonder? One of the most notable aspects of the NI system is that it is almost all for free (or very minimal cost compared to elsewhere).

Yes- and I agree they should be! especially around the much greater respect for schools and teachers than in the UK. But the OP tried to make a point about grammars based on test data that just isn't there supporting their argument.

@TheTimeTravellersNiece You are right that different exam boards differed in terms of difficulty and that universities knew this but I disagree that NI boards were the hardest - I did Oxford and Cambridge and they were always seen as the hardest. The whole point was that o’levels distinguished those who could think at a certain level and with Ox/Cambs it was another level again - NI was more applied.

I agree PISA has shortcomings- one being that in countries that take lots of tests (like England nowadays or NI which might have lots of children prepping for the eleven plus)... surprise surprise, children get better at taking tests.

no comparison of test results is a 'perfect science', but as they sit PISA at 15 I'm not sure what point you're making around LC and A Levels? And the fact England outperformed NI in the most recent is pretty damning to the OP's original argument, no?

I also think both NI and ROI are happy with the approach they've taken to education and neither would have much interest in switching at this point.

During the Troubles, schools did a lot of heavy lifting here. They were the only safe place for many children and really stepped up to the task.

I think we have more respect for schools and teachers than elsewhere in the UK. So it attracts great candidates and staff turnover seems to be lower.

I know. But these kinds of comparisons are never a perfect science and as LC and A levels prioritise very different things, I feel direct comparisons would never be particularly useful.

Education in ROI is also amazing, btw, don't get me wrong. Schools in Ireland seem to have avoided many of the elements that have caused problems elsewhere.

Beat me to it and probably described better.

I couldn't honestly say, I've been away so long now. I do agree with pps though, that there is a great respect for education in Ireland generally.

PISA stats are an international measure that seeks to take a random sample from many countries and test, I think, 14 year olds in a way that attempts to get as fair a comparison as possible. The English medium PISA tests in the UK and Ireland would be rhe same across all nations and regions.

PISA is a test that countries across the world do that is designed by the OECD to be independent of education systems and country specific qualifications. Specifically so they can make comparisons between countries.

No problem.

The end of "The Troubles" was mentioned by the OP but I'm mainly (genuinely) interested into why results in NI are higher than other UK nations and regions. My question was whether there were other differences beyond a selective system that brings this about. It does seem very useful to know the answer since (I assume) the NI system is more likely to yield useful lessons for education policy in London, Leith or Lincolnshire than looking at Shanghai or Finland as we have have done in the past.

I do find much better exchanges of ideas on mumsnet than e.g. Facebook pages or the comments section of newspapers.

My BIL grew up in NI, he failed his 11-plus back in the 90s. His dad was the headteacher of his primary school and basically pulled strings to get him into the grammar school - he’s a very intelligent man who had a bad day and luckily his dad was in a position to rectify it, but what about all those who are not so lucky? I just don’t see what’s gained by dividing pupils at 11 (and I say that a someone who was very academic who went to a comprehensive school, and perhaps wasn’t as ‘stretched’ as I could have been at a private school. My parents were very anti private education). I wish everyone could have the benefit of a top class education.

In my days it was O and A level GCE, and CSEs for the less academic.

There were a wide variety of exam boards in the UK, each set their own exams within the given curriculum. Some boards were easier than others and schools with less able pupils would pick and choose which board's exams to use. This was well known. In England ,for example, the Oxford and Cambridge boards carried the most kudos, and Universities would distinguish results by boards. If they had applicants with the same grades, the board they came from would hold sway.

I had a cousin in a Secondary Modern School who did his O levels with one of the English boards. In comparing papers, the difference was quite astonishing. They were both O levels, both GCE, but his were mostly 'describe this' type questions, mine were 'analysis, debate, draw conclusions'.

It's hard to compare though. The leaving cert is a very different kind of exam to A levels.

My home city in Northern Ireland has amazing Grammars but also wonderful Secondaries that offer a wide range of A level options and get great results. The overall standard would blow your mind.

One major advantage is that the low cost of living in NI makes teaching a much more attractive option for bright graduates than it is elsewhere.

If you look at PISA stats, NI outperformed wales and Scotland but England did slightly better, and Ireland did considerably better- which dents the 'people won't want a united Ireland so they can keep lots of grammars' argument somewhat

I live in England and have nephews in NI. In NI gcses and A levels are assessed differently to England. In England they are examined after a two year course. In NI they have two sets of exams after each year of the two year course and the results added together. Does this make it easier to get higher results in NI? I don't know but even though the exams have the same name are they the different so I'm not sure they can be compared.

You mentioned that the signing of the GFA may have had an effect on the stats. My point was that they were always high, this is nothing new. Sorry if I seemed sharp, between that and the OP suggesting the Troubles were the reason for the non introduction of comprehensive ed, I was getting a little frustrated!

"Spellings and mental arithmetic first thing every day come hell or high water."

Ours have spellings and maths as part of their homework every day. Parents are expected to help their children revise these every Thursday night for a spellings and maths test every Friday from P2 (age 5-6).

As long as the alternative is good then yes. In some areas that is the case. I know a comprehensive school in a grammar school area with a farm attached that offers amazing opportunities.