To think the 'Troubles Northern Ireland 1969-1997' ensured the Grammar system stayed in operation In Northern Ireland, thus is now the best education system in the United Kingdom.

And it pales into insignificance compared with some areas in England, where schools will have a majority of kids with English as a second language, chronically chaotic and insecure family and housing situations, alongside multiple generations of unemployment and financial insecurity.

This is true to a point but it’s a matter of scale. NI is tiny! Some of the issues at play in the larger UK cities in relation to gangs, knife crime, religious fundamentalism etc are just operating on a much bigger scale due to the size of the population.

I’m interested in what you can possibly mean by this.

You really couldn’t be further from the truth with this point. NI is a post conflict society with major issues re: division & deprivation in some communities still to this day.

The catchment point up thread cannot be understated. Given there is no limit on distance to school there isn't the same postcode importance. You end up with some pupils traveling very long distance to their Grammars and none of the house prices direct impact.

I have had children in both English (Ofsted Excellent CoE naice village) and NI primaries (small town, 2 classes per year) and agree with comments up thread that NI are stricter on testing and homework. However I think the English teachers put more of themselves into the role - much less big standard photocopied sheets, but that is only 1 school compared to 1 school.

Sorry, just seen this reply.

I don't think lives are ruined by 11+ failure although it would be a factor in how young people view themselves.

Back in the day (only a couple of years before I went to secondary school), not going to grammar school meant leaving at 15 and being on a very different pathway to those who passed the 11+ or could afford private fees. Since the mid 70's we've developed a system where all pupils study the same courses up to 16 in all schools so I'm not sure of the rationale for Grammar Schools.

Either that or a clearer difference for non-selective schools. In my view a good test of the school system would be whether pupils wpuld choose the technical or vocational school over the academic school even if they were to pass the entry exam.

Of course, all this has nothing much to do with the OP

Grammar schools continue to select by socio economic privilege- indirectly of course- leading to greater gaps between richer and poorer that are very much evident in NI. “Better” education system depends on how you define better. An interesting comparison is with that of the south (ROI) primarily non selective but with slightly better literacy rates and lower high school dropout.

I had a great education in Wrexham…

Yes, this. Or Irish people are just cleverer.😀

Definitely I think that is possibly what drives more of the performance of NI schools more than the 11+ system.

Slough probably kills most of the old school arguements for Grammar school.
Huge amount of skilled hourly paid work locally so parents in the 1980s didn't necessarily want an 'ivory towered' academic in the family.
The grammar schools had low aspirations themselves for these kids, very few going for the Russell groups, lots went straight out to work.

The grammar schools still get good results because the kids are bright, behaviour problems very low, new wave of parents valuing education but still these kids are not setting the world alight in Land Economy and Law and all the other industries that are who you know.

Most of us liked being in streamed classes, even in a Grammar you quickly realise that some people are better or worse than you in languages, art or science. That's what helps teaching and learning, that narrow targeted range rather than having to teach from counting on fingers to imaginary numbers in one lesson.

And don't underestimate the effect of the Church - the Catholic Church in those areas would have been a massive source of extra support.

I think that the Catholics didn't have the same brain drain that the Protestant community had - certainly nearly half of my grammar school year went to England/Scotland for uni and many stayed there to the detriment of their home communities, whilst I think more of the Catholic crowd stayed at home. I think that's contributing to the disenfrachisement of the working class Protestant males that we see going on - the middle class bit of that community has either moved out or moved on.

It is in some areas, in some of the larger towns the schools are verging on failing, with very poor outcomes for most students particularly where we have pockets of some of the highest social deprivation in the UK and the lowest social mobility. Education is a ladder and sadly one pulled from an increasing number of our young people. The impact continues into FE.

Teaching is generally held in higher esteem as a ‘good job’ to have here. It was a main option for anyone reasonably smart who wanted to stay in NI and not move away, rather than a ‘fall back’ option as there was limited private sector careers until recently.

@TheNightingalesStarling there are areas of severe deprivation (eg North and West Belfast) where the schools would only pull from that area, however there isn’t a catchment area as such for school applications so attendance tends to be wider.
I worked in a school adjacent industry for several years, so I have been to basically every school in the country and there was only 1 or 2 that were concerning.

Does NI suffer the same way with there being good schools in more affluent areas... but things in poorer areas failing despite their best efforts?

Completely agree - one of my DC has wet to a non-selective secondary, it was the best choice for them but I was initially skeptical having been through grammar myself. However the secondary (and all the ones I considered) are fantastic. Especially compared to my friend’s children in rest of the UK.

I’ve worked in both the English and Northern Irish education systems, including for an education board. There are some key differences in the systems that do not make one better than the other. They both have positives and negatives.

A key difference that has already been mentioned on the thread is societal attitude to education and education professionals. NI parents, and therefore students, shown much more respect to schools and teachers. Parents on the whole were much more supportive and held their children to account for poor performance or behaviour.

As to the difference in results at GCSE, the English and NI exam boards use different methods to ensure fairness in results from year to year. The English more proportional method means that the percentage getting the ‘pass’ and top grades remains roughly the same. NI use a different approach that is not quite so fixed. Therefore it is not really possible for the English results to be as high as the NI results, regardless of the ‘quality’ of education.

Thats not my experience of the NI education system at all. Where I'm from, the secondaries/ comprehensives are fantastic also.

We ‘set’ at our school (most do) in maths/science and teach in mixed ability for other subjects. There are interventions (maths, reading, English) for the lower prior attainers.

I don't have any recent knowledge of either. I was just making a point about the irony of writing about excellence in education systems, but using badly written language.