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To think the 'Troubles Northern Ireland 1969-1997' ensured the Grammar system stayed in operation In Northern Ireland, thus is now the best education system in the United Kingdom.

241 replies

redange · 21/12/2025 19:30

I do wonder if the Troubles that were ongoing in Northern Ireland between 1969-1997 meant that there was to much going on for the destruction of Grammar Schools to begin. Throughout, the 1960s and 1970s over 1000 Grammar schools were closed in England and Wales going from 1,296 in 1965 1 to the present 164 .The present 164 are in located usually in traditionally Conservative local areas in England. The Most Northern being Ripon Grammar in North Yorkshire, the most southern being Churston Ferrers in Torbay Devon. The survival of the current Grammar schools being down to local councils and County Councils such as Kent and Trafford acting against Government demands initially from Harold Wilson's 1965 Labour Government and then from across the political spectrum, with Margaret Thatcher closing more Grammar Schools than Labour.

However, it is obvious that with all that was going on in Northern Ireland political left wing dogma about Education in the 1970's was not at the forefront of discussion. The, result being that the destruction of the education system that was going on in England and left Wales devoid of any Grammar Schools did not take place in Northern Ireland. The result which is often backed up when i meet people from Northern Ireland being that the Grammar School system has advanced those from Northern Ireland to be the most educated in the United Kingdom. Therefore, it makes me quite sad that now Northern Ireland is politically 'stable' that Sein Fein are acting like any left wing political party and seeking the abolition of the Transfer Tests (known in England as the 11+). Why, cant Sein Fein except that one of the 'benefits' of the Troubles was an education system that has educated Catholics and Protestants greatly above those from say Wrexham. Indeed the Catholic and Non Secular Grammar Schools in Northern Ireland have ensured that only a very small Private Sector needs to exist.

OP posts:
OP posts:
Brainstorm23 · 22/12/2025 20:20

@GinaandGin - yes that's exactly what I said!

There's actually one test now as AQE and GL merged into SEAG.

redange · 22/12/2025 20:20

Maths/English 74% without Maths/English . Many Secondary schools In England might achieve 54% at Grade 4 but certainly not at Grade at grade 5 . Indeed, they are Grammar Schools in Lincolnshire Boston Grammar only achieved 52.3% at Grade 5 GCSE Maths/English . Highlighting, how good Ashfield's results actually are given that its a Non Selective school surrounded by two Girls Grammar Schools and other Mixed Grammar Schools.

OP posts:
GinaandGin · 22/12/2025 20:17

Brainstorm23 · 22/12/2025 20:02

Not sure why OP is saying Sinn Fein is seeking the abolition of the transfer test but perhaps they meant abolition of academic selection. The official transfer test was abolished in 2009. The end result of that was that the test was effectively privatised and continues much as before.

The chances of Sinn Fein being able to abolish academic selection without cross community support are nil due to safeguards built into the Good Friday agreement and St Andrews agreement of 2006.

It's telling that Catholic grammar schools wanted to continue selection
. Despite mcguiness and sf

TheKeatingFive · 22/12/2025 20:13

FinallyHere · 22/12/2025 20:06

The grammar school system is brilliant for any child who is granted a place. Can you find it in yourself to spare a thought for those who are not?

Not so very difficult to pause the system if you measure success by the academic achievement of those who are given places. If you average out the results across all the students, the results give a very different story.

What happens to the ‘rejects’. If their results were equally sparkling, I’d be very interested to know more. I suspect however that the resources are concentrated on those who are given grammar school places.

It's not a given that because there are grammars, the other options are bad. That is definitely not the case where I am from, the secondaries there are excellent.

If you read the thread you'll understand the reasons people are suggesting for education being high quality across the board.

redange · 22/12/2025 20:13

ByronKoala · Today 17:16
redange · Today 14:37
Here are two excellent non Grammar schools In Northern Ireland which proves a point you can have excellent High schools alongside Grammar schools. A point which many argue against in England.
St Columbanus' College - Home
ttps://www.ashfieldgirls.org
I can honestly assure you that Ashfield isn’t anywhere near excellent in terms of leavers destinations, subject offerings etc. I find it strange OP that you’re commenting on NI schools with evidently 0 recent experience of them?

Whether, I have personal knowledge of Ashfield is irrelevant, I know the majority of Non Selective i.e Comprehensive Schools in England would be very happy with 5 A*(9-5) C at 54% even in a non selective area ! I also look at how smartly dressed and articulate the girls are,(including the Sixth Form) having heard them speak on You Tube. Remember, in England this school could be classed as ' a Secondary Modern' school in a City ! Yet here we have a school that offers outcomes equal to the top 30% of all England's Secondary Schools. The, option for A levels is also something that many comparative schools in England do not offer either. Pupils forced in to Sixth Form or Further Education Colleges. Similarly Girls achieving higher than what Ashfield caters for should be in Grammar Schools in the first place !

Ashfield Girls' High School

https://www.ashfieldgirls.org/

OP posts:
WhereAreWeNow · 22/12/2025 20:07

By what measure is the NI education system better @redange ?Genuinely interested.

FinallyHere · 22/12/2025 20:06

The grammar school system is brilliant for any child who is granted a place. Can you find it in yourself to spare a thought for those who are not?

Not so very difficult to pause the system if you measure success by the academic achievement of those who are given places. If you average out the results across all the students, the results give a very different story.

What happens to the ‘rejects’. If their results were equally sparkling, I’d be very interested to know more. I suspect however that the resources are concentrated on those who are given grammar school places.

Brainstorm23 · 22/12/2025 20:02

Not sure why OP is saying Sinn Fein is seeking the abolition of the transfer test but perhaps they meant abolition of academic selection. The official transfer test was abolished in 2009. The end result of that was that the test was effectively privatised and continues much as before.

The chances of Sinn Fein being able to abolish academic selection without cross community support are nil due to safeguards built into the Good Friday agreement and St Andrews agreement of 2006.

GinaandGin · 22/12/2025 19:55

Mintypanda · 22/12/2025 11:57

This is true to a point but it’s a matter of scale. NI is tiny! Some of the issues at play in the larger UK cities in relation to gangs, knife crime, religious fundamentalism etc are just operating on a much bigger scale due to the size of the population.

This
Lots of child sexual abuse swept under the carpet by both sides. Look at Jeffrey Donaldson.. Maria cathal.. aine Adams .. recent reports of Presbyterian church

Northern ireland is the most dangerous place to be a woman in Europe
30 women killed in n.i by men known to them since 2020
Academics have argued that this is due to the troubles legacy
Paramilitaries still control drugs/ prostitution/ money laundering/ rakeerting from small independent businesses
We have a mental health pandemic and mental health services are non existent
High amount of substance misuse
And political parties who are VERY happy to cosy up to said Paramilitaries for votes
The only party worth voting for want to get rid of the 11 plus

Piglet89 · 22/12/2025 19:52

@Fleurdevilleyes, seriously. I absolutely do “have an idea of the range in England”. I LIVE in London and, in the area in which I live, would have to pay £30K a year to get my son the kind of quality grammar school education from which I benefited in Northern Ireland.

Fleurdeville · 22/12/2025 19:49

@Piglet89 do you really think that NI education is better than English ? Seriously? Have you any idea of the range in England? London alone?

NeedsRenovation · 22/12/2025 18:50

Mintypanda · 22/12/2025 18:41

Many people on the border on the island of Ireland choose to send their children to Grammars rather than Irish non selective schools- for example Donegal residents opting for Derry. This choice always fascinates me. It tends to be super high achievers from middle class backgrounds who do this, it always led me to believe that it opened more options for them academically, as compared with the points based leaving cert rote learning system. I was leaving cert educated and I do feel it gives you a roundedness that is lacking with grammar school/a-level. There’s something about mixing with people from a broader spectrum of backgrounds and abilities too- better social skills/ worldliness if that makes sense. I struggle with this as live on the border myself and not sure what option is best for my kids long term.

I’d opt for LC without thinking twice. A-levels involve far too early specialising.

Mintypanda · 22/12/2025 18:41

Many people on the border on the island of Ireland choose to send their children to Grammars rather than Irish non selective schools- for example Donegal residents opting for Derry. This choice always fascinates me. It tends to be super high achievers from middle class backgrounds who do this, it always led me to believe that it opened more options for them academically, as compared with the points based leaving cert rote learning system. I was leaving cert educated and I do feel it gives you a roundedness that is lacking with grammar school/a-level. There’s something about mixing with people from a broader spectrum of backgrounds and abilities too- better social skills/ worldliness if that makes sense. I struggle with this as live on the border myself and not sure what option is best for my kids long term.

ByronKoala · 22/12/2025 17:16

redange · 22/12/2025 14:37

Here are two excellent non Grammar schools In Northern Ireland which proves a point you can have excellent High schools alongside Grammar schools. A point which many argue against in England.
St Columbanus' College - Home
ttps://www.ashfieldgirls.org

I can honestly assure you that Ashfield isn’t anywhere near excellent in terms of leavers destinations, subject offerings etc. I find it strange OP that you’re commenting on NI schools with evidently 0 recent experience of them?

redange · 22/12/2025 14:37

Here are two excellent non Grammar schools In Northern Ireland which proves a point you can have excellent High schools alongside Grammar schools. A point which many argue against in England.
St Columbanus' College - Home
ttps://www.ashfieldgirls.org

Home

It is an honour to be beginning my journey with the College' new Year 8 pupils, I am excited to start our new adventure together. I am also delighted to continue with all the familiar faces of our pupils and we will support each other through our time...

https://www.stcolumbanus.org.uk/

OP posts:
hanahsaunt · 22/12/2025 14:05

The grammar schools where DP grew up in NI were single -sex and completely toxic. When we had the option to move there I noted that it would be over my dead body before our DCs were put into that system. The high school (mixed) did not serve it's constituents well either - it was very much regarded as the dumping ground/ holding space for the differently academic children.

GinaandGin · 22/12/2025 13:42

I had a positive grammar school experience in Northern Ireland , however ,there is an excellent woman on tik tok who discusses her time at a grammar school in county down and the influence of the (protestant ) church .. in the school and how it still influences education in the grammar system

R1nt1nt1n · 22/12/2025 13:40

The grammar system is so damaging for those in grammar schools and those that aren’t .All my children went to grammar schools and facilitating that was probably my biggest parenting fail.

Kumquatzest · 22/12/2025 13:35

As an autistic/Asperger's girl I had a terrible experience of education in Northern Ireland, in both grammar and comprehensive schools. At the time (2000s-2010s era) SEN support was basically nonexistent and I was bullied a lot, which led to mental health problems and me having to change schools. I'm sure lots of people had good experiences of education in NI but I'm trying to show the other side of the coin. I also think writing children off at the age of 11 as "non-academic" and therefore less deserving of a good education is morally dubious.

HollyhockDays · 22/12/2025 13:26

redange · 22/12/2025 12:29

People will seek their employment pathway, away from where they grew up. This i suppose asks another question about Northern Ireland's future. Could Northern Ireland possibly go it alone, or be 'federated' to both the United Kingdom and Republic of Ireland . A truly independent Government from both jurisdictions, could seek to look to build on her NI strengths such as a highly educated and motivated population.

NI politics is absolutely toxic and will get worse in the lead up to the assembly election. People fancying themselves as the next Charlie Kirk and RFK. They can agree on nothing and have no intention of revenue raising. Health is appalling - private is struggling under the number of people having to use that route. So the grammar schools are great but the rest not so much!

redange · 22/12/2025 13:00

Sorry Secular ...

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DeafLeppard · 22/12/2025 12:43

redange · 22/12/2025 12:35

Is it down to five non secular Girls Grammar schools in northern Ireland now. it used to be 7 didn't it and none are located outside Belfast/Bangor...

Do you mean down to 5 secular? I can think of Victoria, Strathern, Bloomfield, Glenola and one in Omagh. Sad that there are so few:(

I also find it interesting that NI was well ahead of the curve in educating girls - you just need to look at when many of these all girls' schools opened to see that.

redange · 22/12/2025 12:35

Is it down to five non secular Girls Grammar schools in northern Ireland now. it used to be 7 didn't it and none are located outside Belfast/Bangor...

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Augarden · 22/12/2025 12:31

I agree OP, I count myself very to have attended a grammar school in NI, even luckier that it was all-girls. Sadly now combined with the local boys' school, reducing the overall number of grammar school places for non-Catholic children. A lot of the issues associated with grammar schools in England is due to their scarcity. Very few children had extra tutoring for the 11 Plus test in the nineties.