To think the 'Troubles Northern Ireland 1969-1997' ensured the Grammar system stayed in operation In Northern Ireland, thus is now the best education system in the United Kingdom.

We don't really. People rarely ask me which school I went to. Some ask as a coded way of determining your background (Catholic or Protestant).

There's a story (likely apocryphal) about Samuel Beckett who taught at Campbell in 1927 for a short while. The headmaster asked him if he realised that the pupils were ‘the cream of Ulster’, Beckett replied ‘Yes, rich and thick’.

Campbell isn't a top performing school academically but calling the pupils rich and thick is maybe taking it a bit far!

The fact there is more choice and less of a scrum is a major reason why the education system is better in NI.

I think you’re looking at this from a very English angle - as long as I can get my kid into the high standard education in the few grammar school counties, that’s fine.

For me, a major measure of whether a nation’s education system is better is the proportion of its citizens it educates to a high standard. And on that measure, NI absolutely wipes the floor with England.

And, in any event, I STILL think the grammar I attended would rival any Kent grammar: even today. When I attended, I’d lay the house on it enabling better social mobility too (a higher proportion of kids attending my north Belfast grammar from working class West Belfast than the equivalent in Kent).

The fact that NI grammar alumni were significantly over represented at my Cambridge college is also notable.

Finally: on your exam board point. Oxford and Cambridge board may have been THOUGHT to be hardest, but that’s only because nobody in England would have likely seen a NICCEA exam
paper, let alone sat one.

Firstly, my personal experience was totally different, secondly, they have a curriculum to follow, just like any other school in the UK. They don't get to just teach Protestantism or whatever.

We saw our brothers and fathers gunned down in cold blood. Give us a decent education without the guilt, there’s a love :)

Having read the paper the tests that children from NI outperformed children in England on were all taken at primary age. In the only test administered at 14yrs old, children in NI performed at the same level as those from England.

At best the the evidence suggests that 3,5,7 and 11 year olds out perform their equivalents in England. 14year olds are performing at a similar level to those in England. And if we look at the results on international testing (PISA, TIMSS) 15 year olds in NI are performing less well than 15 year olds in England.

That doesn’t seem to be overwhelmingly in support of the idea that NI secondary education is much better than in England.

I am a NI grammar school child, coming from a long line of NI grammar school children.

My own son is patiently awaiting his SEAG results and is expected to attend BRA or RBAI (Inst being the less academic of the two, but still a good school.)

The grammar school affinity is ingrained, and quite frankly, I would be horrified if my children attended any of the local secondaries. They would be eaten alive.

@Piglet89 but my point is how would your school ( today) compare to other grammars in England? That to me would be a fair comparison as we know that grammars ( both in England and NI) have different intakes than the comps. They can select, there is lots of private tutoring, there is a different culture regarding achievement, etc. Proportionally, I think you are saying that there are more grammars in NI compared to England so the choice is easier but that doesn’t mean overall the education system is better, does it? In our stats, the private sector skews things and proportionally have a higher number of those schools after grammars were largely abolished. You are talking, I think, about state funded education - grammar and state.

I really don’t see this happening. Many grammar have gone non selective with success already. Dominican in Portstewart for example. And there are already examples of Highs (admittedly outside Belfast) with several students who go on to Oxbridge. I would see it panning out like the Ed system in the Republic with private schools in cities gaining popularity, and subtle streaming in state schools to support more academic students. I would envisage higher numbers of lower achieving students going on to do A levels and lower levels of dropout.

This is my personal experience so why would it not be true?

And iv campaigned to change it

This is ... just not true

Which nobody is doing..? The grammar system in NI is very much here to stay. There is far too much old money and religious/political connections in it for things to be abolished. The class system here is heavily reliant on grammars and the pupils that they churn out.

Looking at a YouTube sales speech to assess what a school is really like🤣 I’ve heard it all. Of course they’re only going to put their very best and brightest pupils on show. As for smartly dressed.. you mean standard uniform?

As someone who lives close by it is very much a last resort school for a reason.

I don’t think that having to go to a separate sixth form college is a bad thing whatsoever. It’s good in my opinion for pupils to have a change of scenery and more independence than what they’d get if they stayed on at their old school for A levels. Unfortunately in NI the options are either stay at school or go to an FE college (nowhere near as good/advanced as they are in England). There’s no in between.

The 11+ in England is an unreasonable system that favours rich parents who can afford to live in catchment and tutor kids. I live in a grammar area but we moved after my DS was 11 so we are stuck in a regular comp. These suffer due to kids feeling like second class citizens and parents disengaging. Funds also seem to be lacking in comparison, due to parents at grammars being able to top up their PTA massively. Despite all this, my DS is doing very well and will get comparable results to grammar kids. I don’t know about the NI system but feels strongly that either all grammars should go or they should be available all obey your country with adequate spaces to remove the postcode/ tutoring issue

I am comparing like for like: today. I don’t live in Kent. Vast swathes of England do not have that system and, on average, the secondary education here just simply is not as good. And a damn site more expensive. Plus there’s an unseemly scrum of pushy parents buying homes or otherwise gaming the catchment areas for a grammar education like that in the south east of England.

As for “30 years ago”: My old grammar school topped the Times league tables for NI grammars this year and it’s as good as or better than our ludicrously expensive local independent - so not a great deal has changed.

@Piglet89 are you talking about the level of education you had say 30 years ago or are you comparing a grammar school in NI today to a state school in London - because that ‘s not like for like. If you said a grammar school in NI was better than a grammar school in England it would be more comparable, or a state school in NI vs London/UK. The grammar schools adjacent to London (Kent) have very high results.

NI has appalling RE education. It's very either catholic or protestant and nothing else.
And see Ed is a bad word in many schools

I did some Googling as suggested and my findings don’t align to the sentiment that NI has the best education in the Kingdom. It’s far more nuanced and varies by subject - also the differences aren’t significant. See below:

‘While rankings vary by subject and year,
Northern Ireland often leads the UK in maths/science, and England excels in reading, though both consistently rank high globally in some areas, with Scotland generally strong in early years but falling behind later, and Walesoften below the UK average in international tests like PISA, according to various reports https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-50563833, www.education-ni.gov.uk/news/ni-pupils-perform-well-mathematics-reading-and-science-international-survey, The Guardian.
Key Findings by Nation:

• England: Ranks high in reading, often above average for OECD countries, showing significant improvement over the past decade in PISA tests.
• Northern Ireland: Very strong in maths and science (often outperforming Scotland and England in these subjects in some studies), and ranked highly in reading alongside England in past studies like PIRLS.
• Scotland: Starts strong at younger ages but tends to fall behind peers, particularly in maths, and shows a widening attainment gap.
• Wales: Typically performs lower than other UK nations in international comparisons like PISA, often below the OECD average in reading, though some internal studies paint a slightly different picture.

• PISA (Programme for International Student Assessment): Shows England performing well in reading and maths, Northern Ireland strong in maths/science, Scotland declining in maths, and Wales below average.
• PIRLS (Progress in International Reading Literacy Study): Placed England and Northern Ireland in the global top 10 for primary reading.

https://ifs.org.uk/publications/state-education-what-awaits-next-government#:~:text=Over%20the%20last%2010%20to,system%20(Sibieta%2C%202024a).

I'll admit I know very little about how the 11+ works as I didn't grow up in a grammar school area. Is there any sort of weighting involved in it? For example, my university offer was reduced because I lived in a disadvantaged postcode when I applied. Do they/could they do something similar with the 11+ where markers of disadvantage are taken into account? I am in favour of the grammar system but, having been to most other kinds of schools, I can easily see how the system would be gamed by cut-throat middle class parents.

I'm not a fan of grammar system. We could so easily have 'grammar streams' in all schools.

It's a system that teaches kids they aren't worth anything if they don't achieve grammar.

Parents who go a little insane come p6 with tutors and preparations and freaking out if the primary school if they feel they aren't doing enough prep.

Then there's the kids who don't do the transfer test, some primaries basically shove them into a room, give them a book and tell them to read while prepping other kids for transfer.

All because parents look at which primaries send most kids to grammar

Then there's the kids who are damaged by their grammar school. They are hot housed and if they can't keep up they are basically forced out so they don't bring grade average down.

@GinaandGin

The late Henry McDonald had an interesting take on this

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/blog/2009/feb/06/northern-ireland-11-plus?CMP=ShareAndroidAppOther