To think the 'Troubles Northern Ireland 1969-1997' ensured the Grammar system stayed in operation In Northern Ireland, thus is now the best education system in the United Kingdom.

"Children being removed from school on certain days of the week for private grinds."
Never heard of this happening- what would be the point?
(For those who don't know, "grinds" is the southern Irish term for tutoring).

I’m going to side note that the destruction of these schools took with it almost all state funded single sex secondary schools. These can be very important for girls and boys of various backgrounds for different reasons. I wish that mixed sex education was not the only state option in many parts of the UK.

Completely, the school I teach in, very much teaches to the transfer. Lots of test papers and from p5 they are doing vocabulary, problem solving and fact learning for homework every night. My daughter's school is a lot more relaxed and homework isn't a lot. In one way this is great, lots of homework etc at that age is ridiculous but on the other hand she has the potential to pass the transfer so I'm going to have to try and do extra work with her and get her a tutor to give her the same chance as everyone else. 🙈

Still spectacularly tone deaf to state that “Troubles and trauma seem to have become a bit of an industry” - though it probably seems like that if you’re from middle class off-the-Lisburn-Road.

And I grew up less than 2 miles from you off the Lisburn Road. Not rural at all.

All that shows is how localised the effects of the Troubles were. They disproportionately affected certain communities and others were hardly touched. Like the PP, my experience was broadly not going to Belfast city centre and extra checks at airports and shops. The murder rate outside of a couple of years in the 70’s was comparable to NYC during the crack epidemic.

No one is saying it didn’t affect you, but if you want your experience acknowledged, you’ve got to acknowledge that very many people had a completely different experience.

You’re not too young: I was born in 81 and grew up in Andersonstown, west Belfast. We waited for our school bus in the mornings opposite the Sinn Fein headquarters.

Let me tell you: most people, if not everyone, I knew was affected. I would not call the effect “overstated” by any stretch. I imagine you were insulated by, among other things, living rurally.

selective state education is damaging for everyone involved in England. Is it different in NI?

It is so much pressure at such a young age. There was talk this year at my daughter's school of some kids collapsing into tears and being unable to complete the test. The invigilators weren't allowed to talk to them to try to calm them so they were just left to try to calm down themselves.

The primary school my daughter's at start preparing them in March of P6 and they don't do much else until the test in November of P7. Most of the kids get tutored outside school as well.

If you're a smart kid from a school who aren't doing much prep and have parents who aren't that fussed you might get through on your natural ability but on the other hand you probably won't. It's not a particularly fair system but everyone wants the best for their kid.

I think abolishing the state run test has actually made things less fair for lower income families especially in the time that schools weren't allowed to prep the kids for the test at all.

When i did the test 30+ years ago I don't remember it being as big a deal at all with as much pressure.

I don't think it's that ridiculous tbh but maybe i'm too young (born in '82). The only impact it had on me was that we didn't go to Belfast City Centre ever until I was well into my teens. I grew up on a farm in the country and went to grammar school outside Belfast and I didn't see much of the troubles first hand at all.

Don’t be ashamed! There’s a lot to be said for the smaller class sizes and the less chaotic atmosphere that goes with it, irrespective of whether the child ends up in grammar.

In more affluent areas the kids attend prep schools linked to whatever grammar the parents are aiming for. I’ll shamelessly admit that I did it for my DD, no regrets! I do however accept that it does give kids an unfair advantage in comparison to their state primary educated peers.

On music: Methody’s music department is indeed excellent. Musical education in NI is also massively bolstered in Methody’s and many other schools’ case by the various ELB music schools (eg the City of Belfast School of Music).

Music in England has this wonderful tradition of choral singing and cathedral school choirs, which I think is an outstanding elite musical education. But it’s open to the few, rather than (as in NI) the many.

It is. And in more affluent areas the pressure starts early on. I’ve heard of parents tutoring their 4 year olds over the summer in prep for starting school. P1s getting substantial homework. P5s getting private tutors. Children being removed from school on certain days of the week for private grinds.

I'm a primary school teacher in NI and my daughter is p6 (doing the transfer next year). It's awful. Imagine feeling like a failure at 10/11 years old. The more affluent children can afford tutors making the system more unfair. Children should not be studying and stressing about exam results. I was very lucky. I'm from a small town with a comprehensive secondary school with a grammar stream. If you live in the town you automatically got in but further afield had to do the 11plus. Not many teachers here that I know agree with the transfer.

For what it’s worth, I went to a university in Ireland where many English / NI students attend and it was always the English students who seemed to blow everyone else out of the water in terms of prior knowledge, critical thinking, readiness for uni etc.

It’s statements like this that seem bizarre to us southerners, for whom it’s the norm to sit alongside builders’ daughters, Irish travellers etc graduate in classes where people can get maximum LC points (600) or 200 points and not think anything of it. You just went to your local school. There are also the ETB schools for those who want a more practical route. Nobody talks about “good” or “bad” schools.

I think the effects of the Troubles are overstated on the majority of the NI population

I think that’s completely ridiculous. The troubles defined the formative years of at least one generation. Middle class areas were affected just as much as any other. My bourgeoisie bil saw the remains of his best friend scraped into a body bag when he was 13. Nobody was spared the effects, the entirety of society was affected particularly in Derry and Belfast.

I think the effects of the Troubles are overstated on the majority of the NI population. Most people had a reasonable comfortable middle class lifestyle, especially if your family had a public sector job. You had great education and cheap housing, and English people are always surprised at the strength of the NI middle and upper classes. Troubles and trauma seem to have become a bit of an industry, and yet no one seems that bothered about getting the Catholic Church out of education, or pushing integration full stop.

My girls’ grammar sent pupils to both Wykham Abbey and Cheltenham Ladies’ College, with no drama or fuss. It was quite funny at Uni watching public school kids in England be really quite astonished when they were outperformed by NI kids from schools they hadn’t heard of - and who also gave no fucks about what school others came from. And if you think English public school graduates are arrogant, you clearly haven’t met many young men from Inst! 😄

One more thing that pretty much all NI schools do far better is music. Almost all of them have really strong choirs, and Methody’s girls’ choir sang at the coronation.

@Piglet89 you got to Cambridge ( one of the examining boards I mentioned).I’m surprised if the NI system is so much better you chose there rather than Queens. Must have been quite an easy ride after such difficult exams.

I totally agree with this.^^

We have excellent state schools. Staffed by great teachers and supported by parents.

I benefitted from the grammar system, as did my dad who went to one of the Belfast grammars in the 1960s as the son of a coach builder who instilled the value of education into all of us. Back in my day (1999) everyone at my primary school did the 11+, everyone knew it was important but despite being an anxious child I don’t recall feeling stressed over it. It wasn’t like now where the classes are split between “doing the test” and “not doing it” and parents report kids vomitting before going in the hall to sit it. Scrapping the transfer test has contributed to making it more stressful for kids rather than just being part of the transition to secondary education.

I accept it’s not perfect but at least kids from lower income families stand a chance, rather the comp system where parents pay through the nose for the luxury of a house within the catchment area of a good school or relying on having parents clued in enough to apply for bursaries or scholarships for private schools.

I would add though that some of the schools outside of Belfast moving to High School status, such as Dominican, or mixed sex (the grammar in Enniskillen which name has escaped me) have done so in an attempt to remain viable in the face of depopulation and declining school roles. They’re not all suddenly having a “come to Jesus” moment as to the value of non selective or co-ed education. I think further changes are afoot in the next 10-20 years, and certainly in the prep sector we are already seeing contraction.

Do not agree with the 11+ at all, very stressful for the child at such a young age and it makes for a more unequal society.
Much prefer the system in ROI which has great outcomes. A lot is down to general attitudes towards education across the whole island, as others have mentioned.