Just been told to remove my pronouns from my Teams profile

I had a boss like you, also in his 50s. He loved to make it clear that he was against modern day wokeness in the workplace. You could tell he thought by making such statements that he was oh so brave, enlightened, or even different from the rest. But the rest of us just felt he was showing his age and attention seeking. We use to roll our eyes and feel second hand embarrassment on his behalf. None of us respected him.

I think this pronoun propaganda is nonsense, but I know how to separate my personal beliefs from my work life. You sound petty. There are ways to make your point, this isn’t one of them.

She was not born a woman. She lives like a woman and wants to be called a woman and I respect that. Why would I not? I get all the “men in female spaces and competing as female in sports” argument too. I just don’t think it’s black and white always.

What does it mean to live like a woman? Or are we just going to go round the houses again? If I don't do any of the actions you give as "living like a woman", am I not a woman?

(The funny thing is, living like a woman usually means doing the food shop, organising Christmas, pulling World Book Day costumes out of thin air the night before, taking the dog to the vet and being appropriated and reduced to this kind of nonsense, and men who "live as women" rarely do any of that.)

And "wants to be called a woman", that's pretty meaningless. Still, you can do it if you like, it's up to you. But again... "this person wants to be called a woman and I'm happy to oblige" is not at all the same thing as him actually being a woman, or "presenting as a woman" (whatever that means) or you actually being truly fooled into wrongly thinking he is one.

She was not born a woman. She lives like a woman and wants to be called a woman and I respect that. Why would I not? I get all the “men in female spaces and competing as female in sports” argument too. I just don’t think it’s black and white always.

Obviously she prefers "she", but accepts "he" from a casual person such as...I dunno, a waiter. Doesn't 'correct' them if they aren't going to have an ongoing relationship.

It's not to do with being validated. It's about internal sense of alignment. I don't get it but then I'm not trans, am I? It's a lot more complex and subtle than some people here might believe. The only people whose acceptance matters to her are those she cares about.

Which doesn't mean she is happy to be called a "dirty bastard" in the street for simply walking along with her brother whilst wearing a skirt

That's very interesting, because yesterday you called this person "he" and "their".

Ok. So the answer to "what do you mean by presenting as a woman" has gone from "I think you know" to "Really?" to "female name" to "just thought he was a woman".

That's interesting language to use, too, in the circumstances; I'd never say "presenting as a woman" about someone who I actually thought was a woman. It's like saying a dog presents as a dog, and not being able to say what you mean by that.

Still, of course you're allowed to have this person be a woman "to you". He still objectively is not.

I meant to be antagonising. Or at least pointing out the ludicrous views that my employer is trying to push on it's employees and woe betide anyone that that has a personal opinion that differs to them.

Oh but I do view it as buying into the ideology. If you’re bothered and you want to avoid confusion why don’t you just put Mr or Ms?

change pronouns to No/Thankyou?

I’m just going to leave this here:

https://fairplayforwomen.com/pronouns/

I’m guessing it will get deleted fairly soon, but hopefully some people will get to read it.

It was originally published on Mumsnet.

This is funny to me because my teenage male son (who was born a male and has no desire to present as anything differently) is constantly called a girl and assumed to be female. He is very tall and slim - and wears only adult men’s clothing. The only thing remotely feminine is his long hair and even that is tied back in a low ponytail at all times. Still, everywhere we go people remark about my daughter. Even when it’s an appointment for him and he is the only child with me, they ask where he is and are shocked when I say “this is him!”

It’s just strange to me when MN continually say how people could never identify someone born male as female. People are too wise for that. Meanwhile I have a big strapping lad rolling his eyes at being called Miss and my daughter once again.

It all seems quite relaxed in terms of style and not using women’s facilities. You use she where others might use he? And is the latter ok?

This is funny to me because my teenage male son (who was born a male and has no desire to present as anything differently) is constantly called a girl and assumed to be female. He is very tall and slim - and wears only adult men’s clothing. The only thing remotely feminine is his long hair and even that is tied back in a low ponytail at all times. Still, everywhere we go people remark about my daughter. Even when it’s an appointment for him and he is the only child with me, they ask where he is and are shocked when I say “this is him!”

It’s just strange to me when MN continually say how people could never identify someone born male as female. People are too wise for that. Meanwhile I have a big strapping lad rolling his eyes at being called Miss and my daughter once again.

This is funny to me because my teenage male son (who was born a male and has no desire to present as anything differently) is constantly called a girl and assumed to be female. He is very tall and slim - and wears only adult men’s clothing. The only thing remotely feminine is his long hair and even that is tied back in a low ponytail at all times. Still, everywhere we go people remark about my daughter. Even when it’s an appointment for him and he is the only child with me, they ask where he is and are shocked when I say “this is him!”

It’s just strange to me when MN continually say how people could never identify someone born male as female. People are too wise for that. Meanwhile I have a big strapping lad rolling his eyes at being called Miss and my daughter once again.

I don't think people should be forced to share their pronouns / reveal their sex especially if they think it's prejudicial (this is partly why we do 'blind recruitment' in our organisation, without names, ages attached to applications).

But more widely I think it's a good thing to encourage an environment where women are recognised for their contribution, not having to hide behind initials in an androcentric workplace.

Realistically for most people, most of the time people will make the right assumption whether a name is male or female. If things are so bad that people need to hide behind initials I think pronouns are the least of people's worries - either its a situation (like recruitment) which needs total anonymisation or it points to a significant workplace culture issue that needs tackling, as there aren't many situations where you can rely long-term on using your initials to avoid misogyny.

I guess what I mean is that she has a style that reflects her character. It's a bit hippy, a bit grungey, and was always thus, pre and post "coming out" as trans.

If she had come out as trans and started dressing like a porn star in fishnets and killer heels (as alleged in a deleted post earlier in the thread) it would have been clear that she was aping a sexualized form of femininity that is nothing like her personality. She doesn't, and neither do all bar one of the other trans people I know.

My child is not taking hormones (yet) and is never automatically read as female. Most people do as you say and assume when she wears a skirt that she is trans.

There are also downsides to sharing pronouns all over the place. The area I work in still has a fair amount of prejudice against women. Some women deliberately use initials. You don't really want to repeatedly highlight what sex people are.

So whose agenda do you prioritise?

This is funny to me because my teenage male son (who was born a male and has no desire to present as anything differently) is constantly called a girl and assumed to be female. He is very tall and slim - and wears only adult men’s clothing. The only thing remotely feminine is his long hair and even that is tied back in a low ponytail at all times. Still, everywhere we go people remark about my daughter. Even when it’s an appointment for him and he is the only child with me, they ask where he is and are shocked when I say “this is him!”

It’s just strange to me when MN continually say how people could never identify someone born male as female. People are too wise for that. Meanwhile I have a big strapping lad rolling his eyes at being called Miss and my daughter once again.

That all makes sense @Diverze

I wouldn't expect that your DC will be read as female even after taking hormones, not unless your DC already has an unusually feminine appearence, bone structure and musculature. A more androgynous man, yes. It's one of the reasons they used to insist that men who wanted to transition had to "live as the other sex" first - so the doctors could see if the patient would tolerate the limitations of medical transition.

Thirty-five years ago I was horrified at how little physical change the transwomen I knew got from transition yet they didn't seem to mind. At the time physical transition was more of a rarity and no-one really knew about regretters etc. Nowadays it seems to me there is more of a politically motivated effort not to know and not to tell people. (sorry - bit of a derail there!)

I went out of my way.
It went unnoticed for years

OK, so your trans daughter is male (I had to read it twice!) But how can you know what your child would wear if they'd been born the other sex? They'd be a different shape. Possibly six inches shorter so they might want to wear heels.

Is you child ever read as female? When your child is wearing a dress people might be unsure (I've sometimes wondered "unusually masculine female or transwoman?") or even if people are sure your child is male they probably assume that your child wants to be seen as female (or at least not as definitely male) in a dress and if they are polite they will respond that way. But I have met a few transwomen IRL and I can't think of any who I just "read" as clearly female.

I think dressing in a feminine way is more effort whatever sex you are. You either think it's worth it, or you don't.