All our children are different religions, Christmas is feeling overwhelming

'Rotten Borough(s)' meaning Tower Hamlets is oft mentioned in Private Eye's column of the same name. A column that tattles much-needed tales on corrupt and incompetent behaviour by UK councils and councillors.

Of course we no longer have true 'rotten boroughs', that is constituencies with very few voters who have parliamentary representation. The Reform Act of 1832 abolished them.

Genuinely interested in any factual errors in my post. I am bewildered as to why any woman in the developed world chooses to convert to Islam. Why join a religion that forbids you both from the priesthood, and even the main prayer hall, just because you're a woman?

I find religions fascinating, occasionally charming or endearing, but often horrifying. Islam worries me the most, and agree with the following Christopher Hitchens quote:

"Islam in its origins is just as shady and approximate as those from which it took its borrowings. It makes immense claims for itself, invokes prostrate submission or "surrender" as a maxim to its adherents, and demands deference and respect from nonbelievers into the bargain. There is nothing - absolutely nothing - in its teachings that can even begin to justify such arrogance and presumption."

From his excellent book 'God is not great'. Strongly recommended.

Exactly!

They expect your to celebrate Eid but they’re not willing to celebrate Christmas with you? No. I’d tell your daughter that if she’s coming to your house, you celebrate Christmas and you will be buying her child a gift. If she doesn’t like that, she doesn’t have to come. Invite them another day. I’m not religious and we exchange gifts at Christmas, it’s tradition, family time. My in laws were very religious and we respected that. Just tell your daughter politely that she either integrates into your family Christmas or she is welcome to come another day. It’s cruel to give all the grandchildren gifts except one little one, and I wouldn’t be participating in this.

I’m terrified that as DD1 doesn’t want us give her children gifts they are going to feel awful as we will be giving the others gifts. I thought we could get around this by having our grandchildren who will get gifts come over earlier and receive them but as DD2 isn’t Christian and doesn’t do church that won’t be possible.

Not sure I understand the sequitur here. But why not ask DD1 to come over a little bit later? She's the one throwing the spanner in the works, after all.

I think she means that to celebrate Christmas would be like joining forces with the Catholics

OP have you asked how DD1 approach the no present thing with her DC? Have you told her that you are worried that DC will be upset with you?

Can you organise some crafts so that they have something to take home (try baker ross)? Maybe have some little packs of bubbles for all the children or some new toys (unwrapped and laying out) for all the "children" to play with at your house? If DC likes it maybe at the end of the day then she could borrow one and bring it back next time?

@pusspuss9There's time in the day for religion. You just time it so arguments are avoided. It’s not the Christianity that’s really the issue though, it’s overall intolerance and lack of respect and kindness.

Good point. No one would say you should park Islam when you celebrate Eid or Judaism when you celebrate Hanukkah - and that one is possibly a better analogy as plenty of Jews are secular Jews who still celebrate Jewish festivals.

there are some replies here, probably meant with all good faith, to basically say no need to mention why this is a special day in the Christian calendar, It almost felt like Christianity is unimportant , compared to other religions.
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Too Presbyterian you mean. Most of Scotland was very anti Catholic.

@mathanxiety The DD is a Muslim convert and relishing it! Often these people take up certain elements of a religion but leave the tenets like tolerance and kindness behind.

If you think the OP is a troll you need to report the post, not troll hunt

You are misusing the term ‘rotten borough’ in your anti-Islam rant, @KitWyn .

Religions are very comforting for very many people. They usefully explain to humans why the world is how it is, and how we can live a good life. We like our explanations and exhortations to be good! For example, ancient Greece used the stories about their Gods to explain why we have winters (when nothing grows) and why we have springs (when we should plant)

If we look at countries run according to Islamic law they struggle. Even those with the huge benefits of unearned wealth from oil, are rated very poorly in terms of being a high-trust society with low levels of corruption. At a more micro level, look at Tower Hamlets, the rottenest of rotten boroughs, in the UK. What is going wrong here, and why?

Some people are dealt a lousy hand at birth. It's very unfair and unjust. Being born female (rather than male), gay (not straight), black/Asian (not white), to a poor (not wealthy) family, within an oppressive religion/culture or with a disability, will all make your life more challenging. But at least with religion we can choose when adults to leave, or can argue for change from within. But with Islam, the penalties for apostasy and blasphemy are very severe, often including the death penalty. So people are trapped.

The issues with Islam (relative to other mainstream religions) largely stem from its inflexibility, intolerance and insecurity. It has a particular unwillingness to change as new evidence and knowledge emerges. There is no wiggle room, uncertainty is strictly forbidden. Criticisms, however gentle, will be sternly and promptly punished to discourage any others.

All religious books contain very obvious scientific errors, that we now know are wrong. I was very struck by how often the Quran talks about both the Prophet and this Religion being the last and final. It repeatedly claims that this is the true, unchanging, perfect word of God unfiltered by man's limited understanding. All previous religions were wrong, Islam is the one true and final religion for everyone on Earth.

So the presence of so many scientific errors are much more wounding to the Quran, than the Bible or Torah. And hence the aggression when even small criticisms are made. Similarly, it absurdly claims that all people are born Muslim regardless of their family's religion. So if a Christian child converts to Islam as an adult that is really them reverting to one true faith. It's not remotely tolerant of discussion, dissent or even nuance.

The Quran was written in the 7th century. Not a great time to be female or gay or poor. We are now in the 21st century. So much has been both learnt and widely changed for the better in the last 14 centuries. We should all be allowed to benefit from these changes. But Islam forbids change.

Please explain why such a dogmatic and misogynistic belief system is not a major disadvantage to its (no doubt, many kind, brave, liberal and intelligent) followers?

I would treat the grandchildren the same, either do presents for the other children on a different day when DD1’s aren’t there, and give something equivalent for the other children, or do in the day and plain wrap a present for them to open when they choose. I would tell Dd1 I was doing this and explain why, it’s not at all unreasonable of you to do this. If she refuses the present that’s her choice. The treasure hunt also sounds like a great idea.

Your DD1 is something else, coming to your house on a religious holiday that you observe demanding that her religion be respected. Perhaps she should stay home. Sounds like everyone - especially you - would have a much calmer Christmas then. Terrified is a very loaded word, and you keep using it.

Agree!

You sound like a lovely grandmother.

In my own family, we have always opened non-Santa gifts on Christmas Eve, and Santa gifts on Christmas morning. Would you be able to fudge the matter by doing a 'seasonal family gift giving event' on Christmas Eve? Giving gifts isn't central to a Christian Christmas any more than a decorated tree is after all.

Or if the grandchildren will arrive on Christmas morning, could you send the presents to them to open on Christmas Eve or Christmas morning at their own homes and arrive for the day after that's all taken care of?

There's a part of me that wonders about the idea your DD has that she can request you send gifts for Eid, which isn't a part of your belief system, but can put you on the spot at Christmas...

Could you ask all children other than muslim daughter to come and hour earlier so that you can do gifts with their children? It will not be unfair in the scheme of things if you are also taking gifts for her children for Eid earlier in the year.

I think it is unfair of your daughter to insist upon no gifts when it is your Christmas - and even though her children are muslim, they could receive them in acknowledgement of YOUR faith, in your home. And I say that as a person raised in a muslim extended family with a Christian mum. My muslim dad bloody loved Christmas and it didn’t make him any less muslim for doing so. The Quran/Mohammed acknowledge the existence and importance of Jesus, so I can’t help but feel your DD is being rather rigid.

Thanks for your personal thesis but there’s about 2.7 million Muslims in the U.K. alone and if what you’re saying was even remotely true then it would be apparent. It isn’t.

Mumsnet has become cesspit for these covert threads to spread Islamophobia. It’s very very unlikely this is true and just another thread to bash.

I think DD1 is being a bit unreasonable.. surely you can give your grandchildren gifts any day of the week... it just happens to be in 25th Dec. It doesn't have to be from Santa or because its Jesus's birthday. I'd have another word with her cos don't want them to be left out. You sound very thoughtful OP and a lovely grandmother 💐

Those poor children.

OP, from where I’m standing, the whole problem is caused by DD1 being so obdurate and insisting on no presents for her DC. As a grandmother, I would find it almost impossible not to give my DGC a present of some description - could you not just give her DC a book (unwrapped) from Granny? The fact that she would refuse a present for her children rather than seen to be in any way joining in with a Christian festival, yet insists in coming for Christmas dinner strikes me as simply her being difficult. I don’t see my DGC very often, so tend to give them a little something, even if it’s just a small bag of chocolate raisins - I think it’s a grandparent’s prerogative to be able to give a small present to the DGC, and I think your DD is being nothing short of mean and difficult.

Me and my older sister don’t get on and I was really fed up of arguments spoiling family Christmases. I want my daughter to be able to enjoy that special day with grandparents without the tension. So we alternate years. We’re all atheists, but with your daughters it sounds like DD1 would find something to get at DD2 about even without the religious aspect.

DD1 sounds very controlling. Does DD2 feel ok with DD1 being there? What about your other DC?

A lot of people are saying you should prioritize the family all being together. I disagree. Set some boundaries. Uninvite DD1 and see her and DGC on any other day of the year.

Your dd1 is being extremely intolerant and unreasonable. It sounds like she feels she has to prove something. Is it possible that ahe is using her new found religion just to create conflict / hide other issues? I don't know a single person from any religion who would object to their child receiving a xmas present. It's also pretty extreme that she didn't attend her brother's weddings just because they were in churches. I don't know what the answer is. Id like to say to just ignore your dd and stop pandering to her but if this was my child I wouldnt want to push her away either no matter how unreasonable she is.

Could you speak to her husband? He sounds more reasonable.