To think a lot of MNetters do not understand what it’s like to parent a child who is not quelled by your anger

Yes this is definitely the case. My favourite is when they safely advocate "consistency" and then their example is how their child did something they didn't like so they told them, firmly, "no". And then they did it again so they removed them. And the child never did it again.

That doesn't sound especially consistent, it sounds like doing something twice. Also so patronising to assume I've never tried the novel idea of...saying no!

Anyway we can all only parent the children we have, I have two very different ones - it is difficult to understand the complexities of parenting another child. I am complimented on one child, and asked for parenting advice. And given sympathy and helpful hints for the other!!

I had one child who was absolutely easy to parent and one who was incredibly hard (he was eventually diagnosed with autism, and I think could also have been diagnosed as PDA).
Unfortunately, my difficult child came first. I thought that the absolute failure of all commonsense parenting was down to me being rubbish and doing it wrong. I just didn't know what it was like for things to be straightforward.

Then for years with my second child I just thought I was doing a bit better because I was more experienced. But that wasn't it at all. They were just utterly different. I can't remember at all what I did when DS2 was 'naughty'. I just can't remember there ever being a problem. Whereas with DS1 I was endlessly attempting the 'parenting techniques' that get thrown about.

It was only as he got older and his problems became more pronounced that I started to be able to understand how fundamentally different the tasks of parenting were for him, and of course by that time we had developed family dynamics and habits that made solutions harder.

Oh God yes, 1000%. Ds was and remains the most straightforward child to parent in the world. I will be a useless grandmother, I haven’t a clue. Though tbh I don’t really remember how I did it or how it was, and I always found it quite supportive when my mum claimed not to be able to remember what she did. So perhaps that will be not too annoying.

Learning that your behaviour makes people cross is a good life lesson- it shows it is wrong because it gets a negative reaction.

To be honest, parents of typical kids never really question the techniques they use, as in they don’t actually notice what they are doing or what underlies it.

Using a sharp voice, or disappointment to control your child is a fairly normal technique. But it’s based on shame. Shame that you’ve disappointed your parent, upset them, made they cross. And some DC just don’t have that button to press! Either they go nuclear because shame is a massive trigger, or they just aren’t connected in such a way as to find other people’s emotions a thing that impacts them. It simply doesn’t occur to them that mummy being upset/cross with me is a bad thing or a thing to avoid, or a thing that’s in any way related to my behaviour.

I don’t think many parents know it didn’t work, given that what replaced it has resulted in a swathe of young people with poor mental health.

A parent showing appropriate emotional reactions to a child's unwanted behaviour is perfectly normal. When they continue to do something they have been asked not to do a stern voice demonstrates your disapproval and shows your feelings of annoyance or anger at the behaviour. It's not teaching them to be fearful of you, it's demonstrating to them that their actions affect others emotions. If you only ever speak to children in a calm loving voice they think you are unaffected by the bad behaviour. They push the boundaries more because they are looking for an emotional response from you which you need to give. People get cross, annoyed, angry, disappointed, upset- it's ok to react to naughty behaviour!

Just to add to this, though, the choice-giving and so on mustn't be too full on or too difficult for the PDA child to respond to. They may feel overwhelmed by the laser of your attention, or the cognitive tasks of assessing and choosing.

The 'hahaha can i have a spiderman cake' could easily be a panicky response to a situation that is cognitively and emotionally overwhelming. Taking anger out of the situation is one good way to lessen the child's over arousal; but it is important to reduce other stimuli too. A lecture about car safety, and presenting the child with a range of considerations and choices that are simply too much for him to take on board, is bound to be agitating.

I don't know what the right thing to do would necessarily be - that would depend on the details. But I'm picturing something like calmly taking the child out of the car and saying "Ok my love, things are getting too much. We'll go out later." Then, when they are calmer, you could build their sense of control by presenting some maneagable choices to them.

Sorry, I missed that you don’t want advice. I was still typing up my post when lots of things were said 🤣.

I do send commiserations! It’s blooming hard! I can remember several occasions where I’m ashamed of my behaviour. But it was extremely hard so I do sympathise.

I think you are assuming we all use anger and loud voices to control our children, which is not the case. It’s definitely not something that works the older they get and it’s clearly not working for your children. sounds like you need to find super nanny ways of setting boundaries, and kindly but firmly following through on punishment but more importantly setting up reward systems.

It’s a pain, but even recognising that wanting the car seat done up is your desire not his is useful.

There’s nothing in it for him, having the seat done up. He isn’t motivated by being safe or not dying. When you realise that it’s easier to find something that does motivate him (not earning stickers, bribery etc- at least not for us).

Having stood at the side of the road for ages with a DC while they refused to get back in the car, I feel your pain. On that occasion the thing that got her back in was being able to ring her social worker when she got home, to dob me in. By then she no longer wanted to, but in the moment the opportunity to complain about my awfulness to someone was irresistible.

You could try a game/challenge. “If you can keep your car seat done up nicely all the way to school, I’ll hop all the way to your classroom!”. And when you initially put him in it, make a deal out of checking it’s on right, comfortable, not pinching, ‘tight enough to keep you safe, but still comfortable’ etc.

Jokes like that worked well with mine. “Oh my! Have I done it right? You’ve gone a bit quiet! Can you still breathe?! Phew😅! Thank goodness!”.

Or a job like, I need to find a cake shop so we can stop on the way home to buy us each a little cake. While I concentrate on driving the car, can you check out the windows and tell me if you see a cake shop?

Distract, delay and engage. Tiring, but actually quite good fun.

Ok OP, you do seem really angry though your child will be sensing that.

I'll leave you to it.

Although I would suggest not posting in AIBU on a parenting site about a challenging child if you don't advise from parents who have actually had extremely challenging children and got through to the other side of it!!!

Why on earth are you trying to quell a child with anger or quash them with a stern voice?!

Absolutely this. I had a similar situation with my autistic son.

PDA parenting is the opposite of what many would see as 'common sense' but it really works. It puts the child in control and a lot of this behaviour is anxiety driven.

So in the car seat situation give him choices, make him in control and if he refuses to put it on just don't go out.

If he has chosen the venue then he is missing out on his choice of activity by not wearing the seat belt. That's a natural consequence.

Don't make it a battle and don't get angry with him over it.

Wow. I've never read any advice like that. Sounds terrible. I do remember one instance as a small child when my dad was angry with me for taking the handbrake off when he left me alone in the car for some minutes.

His anger was effective, but I think that was only because it sprang spontaneously from authentic fear - the fear that by leaving me alone in the car he might have caused my death. It was the fear that I responded to.

Some blustering performance of anger, adopted in response to advice, would produce a different outcome. And of course, the more frequently it was repeated the less impactful it would be.

I had an easy to manage child that responded really well to rewards and consequences.

And I had a child that was not motivated by rewards, was not deterred by consequence. Didn't recognise adult authority and would not notice a stern look. He was very challenging at 6-9 (throwing chairs challenging) and has autism.

Anyway, had to learn to reparent along PDA lines and us now a pretty mellow young man, who is very helpful and does what is expected. (Lots of other things like a special school and ot and salt as well to help) but at home, pda parenting techniques got us results over traditional parenting.

I agree entirely with this. Even in some Anglophone countries (Ireland springs to mind and I grew up there) don’t have anywhere near the same number of children standing out as challenging/difficult/spirited/whathaveyou. I think there’s something wrong with some English parenting culture. I don’t think our children are innately inferior.

Ok, so this child is fearless. No point in shouting or showing you are crossed with them.
What about a logic well put explanation?

And consequences... if you child has zero rection to natural consequences, then I would think of a child psychologist at that point.