To think a lot of MNetters do not understand what it’s like to parent a child who is not quelled by your anger

The good news is that your child isn't scared of you. Children shouldn't be scared of their parents.

The bad news is that he doesn't respect consequences. This is either because he's not yet grasped the concept of cause and effect or because you're not imposing strong enough consequences.

If he's not sitting correctly in his car seat, get an ERF seat which holds him more securely and tell him he won't be turning back until he can show he's mature enough. If it's an optional activity, like going to a party or the park, you stop the car and turn it around and he misses that activity.

My child isn't a compliant child and doesn't gaf if we're angry. So she makes choices. On Sunday she was angry because it wasn't her turn to choose the music in the car on the way to a panto. She started shouting her own favourite song over the music. I told her she could pick to carry on and we'd turn the car around and go home, missing the panto, or she could stop and accept that it wasn't always her turn to listen to the music. She chose to shut up.

@BertieBotts what a wonderful insightful post. One to re-read several times and copy for coming back to later, if you don't mind.

I live in the Netherlands and it's a unique class attached to a standard school, started and created by a rather unique individual who's gathered other teachers who are capable of changing their methods to handle these children. They have done a lot of research into the psychologists who explored more unusual children. They seem to concentrate on wrangling the children so they learn self - insight and awareness, and carefully use group dynamics to help with feedback. It's not a million miles away from my own area so I can glimpse some of what they do and they get results. Some of these children have become so disruptive they've been excluded before and a good proportion go back into the standard school system and do well. Often academically but honestly more importantly they are settled in themselves.

The class is under threat though. New director who doesn't get it, and money. As ever.

Oh yes, I have one like this.

What's funny looking back is that DS1 was challenging from the ages of maybe 3-8 - and he genuinely was, I think it was the ADHD, I didn't even realise how unusually difficult he was until he was much older. And I can also see that I really didn't help because I was a bit chaotic myself so my lack of consistency and calmness just added fuel to the fire. But I do honestly think he would have been tricky anyway. I did so much talking about emotions with him that he has ended up very emotionally intelligent, which is nice?

Then came DS2 and at first I was astonished because until he was about 4, he seemed much easier than DS1. I think because I had literally read about 40 parenting books (I counted them once) and tried everything with DS1 plus I was a lot more settled emotionally (being 30 rather than 20) with DS2 he got off to a much smoother start because I already knew all the "right ways" to handle challenging behaviour. But once his difficulties really kicked in he is a totally different beast. Sometimes he literally acts as though he is on a totally different planet and not even present on Earth. I very much relate to the example of trying to have a conversation about a car seat and he is wondering what kind of birthday cake he will get. He is now diagnosed ADHD with some suspicion of autism - I have thought he was autistic since he was 2 but he doesn't present as typically autistic either plus he wouldn't cooperate with the assessment so, no diagnosis as yet.

DS3 is like neither of them and does things like actually stay on the step and listens if you say stop doing that or XYZ will happen. We have never (intentionally) made him afraid but just the normal stuff like mild disapproval has an effect on him and he experiences guilt/empathy etc and has done from much younger than the other two. He also can listen to a perspective and take it on board, obviously it doesn't always override childish impulses but in general he is a dream - and yet he seems one of the more active/stubborn children at nursery (I don't know what I would do with an actually compliant child!)

I think some people are misinterpreting the OP as suggesting that anger/threats are a good way to parent or that people routinely use this kind of thing as a main parenting method and I don't think that is what she is saying. The thing is that anger, or at least "sternness", consequences, disapproval ARE part of normal parenting, they should not be a large proportion, in fact they should be minimal, but they absolutely are a normal part of the way adults communicate with children, you need a way to communicate no, actually, that's enough now - they do have a place, and it is quite baffling when a child simply does not respond.

For example - one of the worst things DS2 ever did was that he went through a bit of an obsession with the idea of weeing outside in the play area. He was six, not at school because we are abroad but an educational setting. He absolutely knew it was not allowed and I also kept explaining in all kinds of ways but one day he did it anyway and got found out by the teachers and he was actually sitting out on the bench for it when I went to pick him up. I was SO embarrassed and furious but I didn't want to shout because I knew that wouldn't help. But when I went to retrieve him from the bench and explained in a very serious tone (again) why he was in trouble he just didn't register this at all. He was reacting as though it was a totally normal pick up and nothing had happened. He then wanted to go and collect some stones for some game and I said no, and he couldn't understand why I wouldn't let him do it and got quite agitated about it. He then wanted to get ice cream on the way home and again, couldn't understand why I said no or what his behaviour had to do with it. I found it really difficult because most children would understand, if they had got into trouble, that their parent would be unhappy about it and that they shouldn't push their luck by asking for fun things, but he just does not make that link or differentiate. I did come home on that day and despair a bit because I felt like how can I ever teach him social norms or what is right when he won't even have a discussion about it. But that said he has never done that again.

I think it has given me a totally different perspective TBH. A lot of the everyday disapproval/consequences/stern tone I actually find fairly unnecessary now (because they just tend to escalate DS2 so we rarely use them) and I think you'd be surprised if you try to track how often this is used to note how common it is. I think people tend to fall back on this more often than they would realise and TBF for the vast majority of kids, it doesn't have such a negative effect that it's not worth it. If you have a generally loving/supportive relationship then it's going to be a drop in the ocean and it won't make a dent in it, and most children also pick up enough from general social learning that they are generally working out the acceptable ways to behave etc so they don't attract disapproval or sternness from adults constantly anyway, unless they are going through a tricky phase.

But, I also think that we tend to attribute more power to things like consequences and fear of angering a parent than they actually have. I don't think that is really where learning happens, I think it's more in the observation and development of skills. Because we have to teach all of that stuff to DS2 more explicitly because he doesn't pick it up on his own it makes it more visible, but I think that's the majority of how all children learn. It's just that we remember the times that we tell them off or the big incident where you were livid or whatever and think about that as being the learning moment, but I don't know that it is. Maybe it makes an impression, I think we all have childhood memories of something like that, but if you have a child who hasn't managed to get there with whatever skill they were lacking that led them to behave like that in the first place then it doesn't matter how angry you get they will still not have the skill.

Interestingly any sort of reward system is also ineffective for ds.

Sounds like he really marches to his own drum! It'll be interesting to see how he grows up.

But there’s a difference between parenting by anger and having anger/shock as one of the things you feel/display as a parent.

When 3.5 year old ds was suspiciously quiet playing with 3.5 female associate on 22 December and they were collectively found to have OPENED ALL THE OTHER FAMILY’s CHRISTMAS PRESENTS, yeah I was angry. And disappointed. The fact that ds was responsive to that and immediately ashamed made it pretty easy to deal with.

A parent who tries to maintain power through fear - whether it's shouting, a permanently stern and angry voice, going straight from zero to a thousand miles a minute and is always on a fine trigger for it (even before you take physical violence to make them feel better about themselves at the expense of the child) - is just as likely to end up the subject of utter contempt.

Why should a child respect or obey somebody like that? One day they'll be bigger and stronger, not a little child anymore - and still more in control of themselves than the raging creature in front of them.

I think I said that exact sentence to Dh in relation to DS many years ago. He had oppositional behaviours, these days it would be called PDA. Bloody nightmare. Imagine if your little kid is at the edge of a rooftop and if you call him back he will jump so you pretend to not notice or care in the hope he doesnt die. Thats (literally) what it was like. Always a double bluff. Thankfully he is falling into the latter category, fiercely competitive and motivated, A student and a focused athlete. It honestly could have gone either way. We had to step back a lot or at least give that impression, even now I wouldn't dare tell him he should study or not go out because he would do the exact opposite.

He is 18 now and a charming and responsible boy. Hope that gives you some comfort @andanotheryear

are you me? I have 3 kids, each with the personalities you describe.

Anyway my point is some kids are just wored different. My Nan used to say to me that my eldest was a biddable child, i had no idea what she meant until I had my 2nd.

All children are different, ND makes a difference obviously. Natural consequences, consistency, fair but firm etc. But for some kids it makes zero difference.

How are you sure they are not ND? How old are they?

6 kids yere from 26 down to 9 yrs.

Eldest was fine i could explain, use natural consequences etc. Is autustic, gifyrf for want of a better word.

2nd son was more stubborn he is autistic adhd logic, consistency etc but tested me...

3rd no issues at at very biddable and easy going.

4 was in-between no 2 and 3. He is autistic adhd.

No 5 a mix like no 4. Liked routine, structure etc. Also autistic.

No 6... absolutely nothing worked... he is PDA complex needs, tourettes, absence seizures, massively complex sensory profile. Nursery couldn't get him to do anything, nor could school.. he now has eotas, 2:1 all staff pda trained and use PACE techniques following what he wants to do its learning by stealth and his intetests. Life is tricky!

I also work in complex needs dchool. My 3 adult children are all doung very well, one went to uni, turned down a place at Cambridge now works in IT and is sought after. One in investments, another mechanic.

The 17 yr old is at college doing art, my 15 yr old has always done very well.

And then I got my youngest.... every one of them has taught me sonething different. But PDA has been one hell of a journey and rules, consequences, authority mean nothing to him. He will and has happily told his Head teacher to get in the bin and will simply say you cant tell me what to do. His pda also stops him doing things he wants to fo, it impacts eating, drinking, going to the toilet. I have had to learn a whole new way of life with him. And sometimes yes it means we dont go out, he cant access a typical education, healthcare is a nightmare. Its bloody exhausting tbh.

Good question. OP has not mentioned this or that she intends to get her child assessed.
She just keeps moaning, only...
Refusing any advice....
Has issues figuring out consequences herself....
And no mention of how calm logic explanations affect her child....

So, just keep doing what you do = get the same outcome. Easy!

OP does not sound fond of consequences. Neither she has said a peep about logic........

@ReleaseTheDucksOfWar

Was it a private school?

but I do know most of the ‘advice’ I’ve seen re climbing out isn’t helpful for us I suppose is all I’m saying.

I think I found that about a lot of parental advice - though DD1 has ADHD, Dyslexia and dysraxia and it's likely other two have ND of some sort so maybe it was us.

Some of the advice about getting DS and DD1 to sleep was take them for a drive often usually right after us saying we don't drive .

Despite that though and how hard they were in childhood teen years weren't particularly bad and seem to be entering adulthood quite well.

FOUR BLOODY MILES?!?

ugh sorry!

That's a bummer. I might have tried bribery - the proper sort where you get the behaviour before you hand over the bribe. Psychologists call it "concrete rewards". Five minutes sitting in the carseat with the seatbelt done up on a timer, then stop and hand over a sweetie. And repeat, until journey ends. Most kids have something that they want - though I guess if climbing out of the carseat is the most rewarding thing he can do or he can't hold the thought of the sweetie and restrain himself for five minutes then no, it wouldn't work.

Maybe not use bribery at the end of the day though, because after a fun exciting tiring time a kid just might not have the control left to earn a sweetie. At that time of day you might just have to nail the kid to the carseat distract (a sweetie might do that too!) or get the bus home. On the other hand you're not in a hurry to get to an appointment so "we can stay here all night if we have to" until the kid falls asleep in the seat and off you go...

Most parenting books give a simplified view of "consequences". I read up on motivation theory and learned that "positive and negative reinforcement" don't mean what most people assume they mean. Negative reinforcement means bringing a bad thing to an end (like undoing a safety belt relieves your discomfort, or having a tantrum relieves your inner misery) Positive reinforcement is getting something nice (like getting a sweet or 10 minutes on the computer, or having a tantrum so your parents will give in to you or pay you some attention) Positive and negative reinforcement don't work the same way. So if you're giving a sweetie to soothe or distract from discomfort, you might see "but you're rewarding bad behaviour". Nope. You give a soother before the bad behaviour even starts to distract from the discomfort that you know leads to bad behaviour; and you give a reward after you got the snippet of good behaviour that you asked for. (Well most of the time anyay) That way you don't accidentially reinforce bad behaviour.

My DC found car rides soothing so we didn't have this particular problem but it's all part of what I think of as "extreme parenting". We do whatever we have to do to maintain safety and lead some kind of life, and if our child isn't motivated by exactly the same things as other kids then what we do will look wrong to other parents. We grow a thick skin!

I second the responses that say sometimes waiting it out just isn't an option.

It's also infinitely harder when you have a well behaved older child. I would happily wait out my youngest to put his shoes on/get in the car. But my eldest is also waiting patiently and has to be at school.

I would happily walk/get the bus/get up earlier but this means my eldest also has to walk in the rain, get up earlier to be ready etc.

I would happily be consistent and persevere with putting him back to bed each time he gets out when he refuses to go (and this can go on for multiple nights/multiple times) but my eldest then gets disturbed sleep and woken up.

Sometimes you've just got to ride the wild wave and grab at what works at that moment in time - and they are not always MN friendly things!

I think even with consistency it can just be much harder to get good behaviour from some children than others.

When my neurotypical fairly compliant three year old didn’t want to wash his hands, I teach him why we wash our hands and encourage him with some nice soap. He does it and then goes round repeatedly the importance of hand washing to anyone who will listen. If he forgets, I remind him and he does it. He will always respond to a stern tone.

My extremely stubborn probably autistic 5 year old went through a similar phase. I explain the importance of handwashing. He

• tells me he doesn’t care about germs or getting sick/ his hands are clean / he’s already washed them / he doesn’t believe in germs
• pretends to wash them
• purposefully gets water all over the floor
• hits me
• has a screaming meltdown about handwashing
• when I try to give a consequence like taking his toy cars away, either screaming meltdown or he doesn’t care about his cars etc

We did eventually get there but only really because he’d moved onto another battleground. You do end up picking your battles to focus on safety or extreme bad behaviour rather than nice to haves.

Sometimes consequences work but sometimes he just doesn’t have enough control over his behaviour to respond to them.

I feel like I can be quite a good parent to my youngest but have to work 10 x harder with the oldest and I don’t always get it right because you need endless patience and a lot of different strategies.

My child is pretty easy to parent now but was a very hardwork baby/toddler. I am definitely much stricter than most of her friends parents who are all very 'wet' and 'oh don't do that Timothy'. Most of them are NT but haven't been told no or been told be be bloody quiet sometimes.

I think we have gotten to the point that parents seem incapable of parenting their neurotypical kids effectively so thus people assume parents of ND kids are just being feckless.

My kid isn't scared of me but she knows the fucking stop it look. She's old enough to behave well in public places and not be bloody annoying.