Drs' payrise should be funded by cutting 23.7% govt pension contribution

The comment was about all publice sector roles, salaries, pensions. Where wages are much lower than the private sector. Do keep up, you're letting your bias against doctors cloud your comments

I am sure you would would be thrilled if this happened to you. Punish those who have stayed

Partners in a LLP still own a share of the business and receive profits (not salary).
Big 4 will be LLP, but I am not sure that is universal in accountancy practice and suspect the traditional model prevails in smaller partnerships.
Not all partners in a LLP have limited liability - I was a partner in one until 2016. You still have to invest capital (and the amount of that capital is still at risk).

Partners - whether Big 4 or otherwise - do not receive "pay" at all - they own a share of the business and are paid profits, which vary massively and are in decline. And if the business goes belly up, they might well lose their house. I can't see the sweaty kids on the picket line today willingly swallowing that kind of risk

Absolutely not true of the Big 4 (not sure about the otherwise, but if you mean accountancy practices generally usually also not) - they are all limited liability partnerships, no risk of being liable for losses of the LLP.

Edited to add - I've just seen you work in law where the normal model is also LLP, how can you not know this?

? In the UK doctors wages are set by what the NHS thinks is suitable. Take them or leave them. Luckily there’s no shortage of people willing to work for the wages. Other countries have totally different healthcare funding systems, can afford to pay doctors more and do so. If you want to be paid similarly I suggest you go overseas. They have more funds to pay you more. But expecting a hefty pay rise from the UK state when the government has no incentive it increase that money and it could be better spent increasing doctors headcount is just daft.

Avg nhs consultant pay 110k to 140k, average accountancy partner pay 400k to 800k (big 4) smaller firms - tax partner 100k to 150k.

Very selective summary.

1. DH is a consultant and earns £180k, plus roughly half as much again from private practice income.
2. Big 4 remuneration will be higher than anywhere else, for obvious reasons. NQ accountants are paid less than NQ doctors even at PWC, and nobody in the Big 4 is getting overtime, but that obviously doesn't suit your narrative.
3. Partners - whether Big 4 or otherwise - do not receive "pay" at all - they own a share of the business and are paid profits, which vary massively and are in decline. And if the business goes belly up, they might well lose their house. I can't see the sweaty kids on the picket line today willingly swallowing that kind of risk.
4. A "tax partner in a smaller firm" is oblique enough to be meaningless, but tax accountants tend to be paid slightly more because they can be highly specialised.
5. The average accountant salary in the UK is apparently about £40k.

One of the problems is that all doctors take the salary (or profit share, without appreciating the difference) at the very top of any chosen profession and decide, based on very little evidence, to make that the comparator to their own salary. It happens all the time with DH's colleagues and my own profession (law) - they point to city partners with drawings of £3 million pa and assume that they - unlike 99% of that partner's actual cohort - would have the skills, luck, resilience, lack of interest in work-life balance and understanding spouse, to make it. For every law firm partner earning megabucks, there are probably 100 ordinary solicitors earning £50 to 60k.

One of the (many) problems with NHS remuneration is that you pay everyone at a certain level the same, even if - as is sometimes the case - they are doing the absolute bare minimum or failing to meet expectations. It is absolutely barking to expect the public sector to match top professional services salaries in a competitive market.

Yes because if a doctor hadn’t gone into medicine they’d be a big 4 partner. Of course! It’s such an arrogant position to take! I got straight As, went into professional services. Out earn doctors and most consultants. The skills needed in my role are very different to the average doctor.

Yes private sector pay has risen in recent years more than doctors pay, and yet we still have so many people applying for each post. Pay doesn’t need to rise for doctors. Why not hold off on pay rises and use the money saved to increase positions? This could be an argument made by the BMA. It’s would make sense. But they choose not to.

You focus on Dr's and vacancies but atm many trusts have recruitment freezes and those who have recruited, have gone for exp overseas staff.

Its widely acknowledged the NHS has huge shortages of Doctors, along side many other HCP roles.

There simply isn't the funding to recruit what is required and the ones needed are experienced Doctors, not the newly trained.

I dont think you are up to date with the difference between those who are leaving and those replacing them. Its not like for like

There have been many many years where the private sector got good parishes and bonuses and public sector pay was capped sharply. You've conveniently forgotten that

Well that would true, though other HCPs have faced redundancy.

However, a senior manager/accountant/lawyer isn't going to save my child or or partners life.

Plus anyone leaving school can choose to go into Healthcare and have this job security if its so attractive?

No they don't, because a: they ve not the exam grades and b: the private sector can pay way more, at senior level, than a Consultant would get.

Avg nhs consultant pay 110k to 140k, average accountancy partner pay 400k to 800k (big 4) smaller firms - tax partner 100k to 150k.

So increase their wages by c20% to equalise on both counts then?

I don’t know. I never compare a pay rise with inflation. Thankfully my industry has recovered, and if I want a pay rise and I don’t think my employer is being generous enough I’ll change job. They know what so they ensure they’ll pay what the market supports.

Thats why it sounds so odd to hear doctors threaten to leave if they don’t get a pay rise, when there are loads of people lining up to replace them. Where’s the incentive to raise doctor’s pay? There isn’t one.

I'm not saying it never happens but your comment implies that it's the norm. If a company is unable to maintain it's cost base in line with inflation then it's not going to be around long anyway so I'd start looking for another job anyway.

Well post financial crisis my employer went through incredibly tough times. We got rid of 2/3rds of all employees and those remaining received no pay rises at all
for 5 years. We were very glad to have a job and there were no new opportunities in the industry so there was no arguing. if your employer can’t afford a pay rise they can’t afford a pay rise.

And ‘everyone accepts below inflation pay rises is a pay cut’? In the public sector maybe, but as someone who’s spent most of their life in the private sector this is a totally foreign concept. We’re grateful to get anything. Yes it’s in real terms less money but this country is getting poorer, and expectations of those employed by the state ought adapt accordingly

This is not at all universal in the private sector! I have never accepted a below inflation pay rise in my whole career. You should value yourself more.

@Maray1967 that would be the kind of performance bonus that wouldn’t be payable at all if the business was doing badly, right? Like in circumstances where an idiotic government stymied business growth with ludicrous, punitive tax policy?

And let’s also compare rates of redundancy, dismissal, job security, availability of overtime pay and “unsociable hours” payments, shall we? As a lawyer (married to a consultant) I had a similar period of training to DH, but have never received a penny in overtime, nor have I ever worked only my contracted hours.

More power to Wes Streeting’s elbow. His biggest mistake was giving in last time - and this was entirely foreseeable.

And compare job security too. How many redundancy rounds are there for doctors? What proportion of doctors have experienced redundancy in comparison with a senior post in professional services? The difference would be laughable!

Seriously rather than underpaying them, then complaining further about their pensions.

Just let them go private.

I'm sure they'll earn enough so they can fund their own pensions then.🙄

Let’s consider the whole package indeed. I like to remind private sector employees on a similar level of seniority in their field to me about this when they mention their bonuses. DH works for a major retailer so also gets staff discount as well as a five figure bonus. Friends in banks also benefited from lower mortgages.

Bonuses and staff discounts in HE? Hardly.

I think you’ll find Wes Streeting is one of the most popular cabinet ministers. People think he’s doing a good job (unlike most other ministers) and one of the main reasons is that he’s prepared to stand up and tell the Doctors that they’re not getting any more money. Every time he stands up to doctors he gets more popular.

And ‘everyone accepts below inflation pay rises is a pay cut’? In the public sector maybe, but as someone who’s spent most of their life in the private sector this is a totally foreign concept. We’re grateful to get anything. Yes it’s in real terms less money but this country is getting poorer, and expectations of those employed by the state ought adapt accordingly.

The public aren’t supporting this strike though. Greed and upsetting patients are the main reasons. Yes, the well off strike now. No one else can afford to. I read doctors have been on strike for over 50 days in 3 years. No wonder waiting lists barely move. It’s shocking that the public is head to ransom.

I think most people accept a below inflation "pay rise" is in real terms a pay cut.

I really don't understand the Govt, a multi year pay deal is the right thing to do, esp politically, does he really want a Doctors strike in the run up to the next GE ?

Acting tough didn't help the Tories and it wont help Labour either, as seen at todays PMQs and will be reflected in the headlines.

Its almost as if Labour want to be out of office for another 14 years.

@eyeses It’s foolish not to pay into a workplace pension where the employer puts in a stonking amount. Also I think a second pension is mandatory now. An employer contribution is a gift and tax not paid on it so it’s utterly ridiculous not to pay in. Obviously they are expecting the rest of us to pay pension credits and benefits when they need money upon retirement.