To wonder if the Doctors strike will still go ahead next week?

BMA have just announced that strike is going ahead.

I largely agree with this post, as well as other points that you have made.

I would add that to March 2025 the mean annual pay of F1s was £43,275 (for F2s it was £52,310). As a yardstick, the Law Society sets a recommended minimum of £24,320 for first year law graduates, and the Bar Standards Board £22,019. The other obvious difference between medicine and law is that a law graduate is not gifted a training post or pupillage, in fact the average law graduate is guaranteed not to obtain one.

The BMA would have us believe that after FY2, medicine is not so different in this respect, because there are not enough training posts and too much foreign competition. This point is repeated ad nauseam. However, as I think you pointed out, F2s also opt for "non-training posts" and apart from lacking structured career progression these are really no different. Indeed the proportion of F2s not applying for "training posts" has been steadily increasing, at the last count (4 years ago) 56% of F2s did not even apply for a training post. Nonetheless, after 3 years 90% have entered speciality training. So the BMA story that doctors are underpaid or unemployed in significant numbers is frankly dishonest

However, they are disgruntled. In a 2023 survey of medical students' attitudes, only 17.26% of surveyed students were satisfied or very satisfied with the overall prospect of working in the NHS. The problem seems to be that at the point of entry to medicine we are selecting people who, once they've had time to reflect, don't want to work, or at least not here.

There were less jobs in the NHS and there was no restritcion on oversea doctors applying - I remember in the late 1990s seeing a consultant get 508CVs for one SHO job -90% were overseas, 5% were european and the rest British graduates. That really stuck with me - so when you say competition was not as bad - not true.

Fees came in 1998 and many people were paying fees before that aswell if non EU medical graduates.

The interest rate is the crime here for all students not just medical students

I have heard doctors who used to fo the 100-120hrs per week work and got paid for 40-50 - that this was their paying back the cost of their training, so no not actually fees but a hell of a lot of working for free which this generation no longer need to do

You did not come out of medical school with100k of student debt accruing 7-8% interest a year and were not competing with 20,800 International Medical Graduates and UK medical graduates for a specialty training post.

Consultant colleagues will be covering.

Doctors when they learn to be a doctor learn the first oath that they take is “do no harm” going on strike is going to cause deaths and therefore much harm so I don’t know how they think they will live with themselves personally

I hope not!! I think that most of the doctors are Gen Z and younger millennials who are behaving in a very short sighted and entitled manner - I started working in NHS in 1997 - we chose a medical career and we knew what we were getting into as did most docs. Things were a lot worse then - junior docs regularly worked 100 plus hour weeks - which was obviously not good. BUT all those who get top grades and ignored the reality of NHS work and conditions are now behaving in a most entitled manner. Also, doctors can’t work in a silo, and need the other skilled professionals alongside them - the BMA are not above other unions as doctors are not more important than other professions who work alongside them. They are behaving in a childish manner and I’m frustrated and embarrassed in equal measure

Not much point in driving down pay when all the doctors you have paid to qualify then run off and have much better conditions and MUCH better pay abroad. What a waste of tax payers money! They are not paying overseas doctors any less so there is no saving to the NHS.

But hasnt that been the strategy all along.

Flood the doctor market with new home grown and overseas doctors, so competion is great and people will take any job on any pay.

We currently have a surplus of doctors in the country so why one earth would the government want to pay them more, when there is another one waiting in the ings who will take the job at the current pay.

Very easy way to start driving down pay

Although intercalation is not essential, when you are fighting for a training place anything extra you can offer gives more points for your application as it shows commitment to your profession and a lifetime of learning. That is once you have sat national examinations to be ranked against all the other applicants -and paid for the privilege of doing that.
I agree competition is important so that only those truly committed receive the posts but you can't up the amount of medical degree places and then allow doctors to be unemployed after the tax payer has paid towards their degrees and training.

It is a choice to intercalate - it is not essential to career progression.

We all want competent doctors, nurses, physios OTs etc - doctors do not hold the monoploy on being entitled to a job for life which is what they are effectively asking for. Less work, more monies, more funding for courses, exams etc.

Medical students can work whilst studying and an awful lot do,

Yesthe majority of training opportunities should be available to British medical graduates but banning all IMGS is also not the answer, diversity and competitin are important in promoting excellence.

Wehre would the world of heart transplant be if we had banned Sir M Yacoub from this country and all the people he has trained?

I want an insurance based system TBF

What about the ones who do six year degrees through intercalation? That particular extra year is charged at a totally different rate of interest -much higher and therefore more is stopped from their wages. I do not dispute that all medical professionals should be paid a proper wage relevant to their years of intense learning and commitment. BUT remember medical students lose the opportunity to work over the summer holidays as their degrees continue over that period so their potential for more debt is much higher.
The Dept of Health have also omitted that should there be a state of emergency announced in a trust all Junior doctors will return to their posts immediately. However, some trusts were called out last time, as they announced emergencies that were not real. None of that makes the news! Lies are floated around on both sides but if you want an NHS that won't be insurance based like in Australia, we need to fight to make it the most efficient and filled with doctors who, when they want to proceed in their careers feel supported to do so and have the necessary opportunities.

Not all resident doctors are hardworking saintly individuals and to say they need a bigger payrise than say nurses is out of touch with reality.

Most of the docs I work with are hard working and lvoelyt but there is a growing number every year who feel that everyone else in the hospital, is inferior, they are entitled to better treatment than other members of staff and they are suprior. The actions of the BMA enforce this and create divide amongst the groups in the NHS who are trying to deliver good care.
IMGS have been targeted, physician associates, calling out managers as out of touch - they seem to find a group and go after them in a very toxic way.

They are no more worthy of a 25% pay rise than the physios, nurses, cleaners, security staff and everyone else in the NHS.

Physiotherapy degrees in scotland are 4 years, speech therapy can be 4 years - so those on a 4 yr medical degree have no more debt than these professionals who get paid significantly less and those on 5 year degrees have one extra year of fees.

And the consultants in my Trust have covered the nights for all the doctors strikes

Completely agre the attacks are very personal and very far from reality which makes me wonder what the motivation is?

Gosh, there is some real dislike of doctors on this thread, some very unpleasant, sweeping statements are being made. I can't really understand why.

Nail on the head. The BMA is run by naive wannabee politicians.

VERY few jobs have maintained 2008 pay levels. There's been real pay deflation across most sectors/professions due to the 2008 financial crash. Why should doctors be treated differently and why should the taxpayer, i.e. all the other workers who've not maintained 2008 pay levels have to pay higher tax to pay for them!

These are highly skilled individuals that deserve better pay - sorry no an FY1 is not highly skilled an ST7/8 is highly skilled and is earning 95+k for a 44 hr week .Foundation doctors have a lot of supervision and their basic salary is 32-37K basic before you add in the unsocail hours and other bits which top it up.

They are not left in charge of hospitals on their own all weekend - there is a lot of misinformation going on here.

Doctors work hard and study hard but so do many people - they have debt so do many people. Working nights in any job is crap. Yes they do carry a lot of responsibility as they get older and more experienced but the system has evolved over the last 30 yrs. The hours are considerably less, the supervision is much higher, there are more doctors doing the same amount of work than before - thinka1:4 oncall rota is not staffed by 12 doctors - this is good. They do not do 3 day weekends from 0800 on Friday through till 1700 on a Monday anymore - they work shifts. They get protected teaching, study leave for courses and exams which are partially funded, lots of inhouse training. They expected to come to work and it all sorted for them - not realising that they have to contribute to the running of a department, hospital.
Screaming at Band 3 admin staff who write rotas that their medical resident predecessors agreed to and designed, because they are asking for annual leaave in 2 weeks time and their colleagues have already booked it off - which happens all the time. Nthing excuses piss poor behaviour and some of our resident doctors are very entitled, arrogant and rude - some are equally appalled by their colleagues behaviour. For those of us in the NHS - the entitled behaviour is more prevalent

Why did Streeting do nothing about UK medical graduate prioritisation in time for the yearly Oriel appication cycle?

This application cycle is once a year and is already closed and IMGs have already put their applications in. So how will emergency legislation work retrospectively?

Streeting was doing the rounds saying he was going to reintroduced UK medical graduate prioritisation in June/July but did nothing so this year's Oriel cycle has no prioritisation for UK graduates.

It is almost like UK medical graduate prioritisation was always going to be a bargaining tool with BMA... If that is the case why would he weaponise this issue when there are 22,000 unemployed UK trained doctors when NHS is running hot all year round and A&E departments are like war zones.

www.doctors.net.uk/news/uk-medical-graduates-will-be-given-priority-for-nhs-jobs-streeting-says

My DC was in medical school when The Resident Labour Market Test was abolished so too late to choose a different career. Unfortunately the influx of IMG applications went under the radar for years. I am wondering why BMA or Health Secretary did not think to monitor its impact?

I have seen posts on another forum showing resentment towards IMGs in relation to their BMA vote or working during the strike. It is a concerning trend but there are genuinely a lot of UK medical graduates that have no income.

I just think the BMA is run by some childish, economically illiterate idiots. I really feel for the UK graduate junior doctors who would make fabulous doctors but can’t get jobs.

I also think resident doctors priority is for UK medical graduate prioritisation for UK training posts from the posts I have read. It is pointless having pay restoration if you don't have a job/career.

I read a post today that said the BMA were in favour of getting rid of the Resident Labour Market Test in January 2020. This has caused the huge influx of IMGs applying for UK specialty training posts which has created UK medical graduate unemployment.

It won’t, so isn’t it fairer that all public sector workers get pay rises in the hope of slight pay restoration rather than the country being held to ransom by a greedy little pocket of public sector workers.

The junior doctors I know all think theBMA are tossers. They want UK training posts for UK graduates. They couldn’t care less about pay.

Where will the money come from is what I wonder?