Does Anyone know what a birthing person is ?

This is a wonderful explanation and I couldn’t agree more

@FlirtsWithRhinosthats so well put… you have expressed it perfectly! (19:39)

I agree.

And only a man can rape legally- it’s literally written in law.

“A person (A) commits an offence if—
he intentionally penetrates the vagina, anus or mouth of another person (B) with his penis.”

Ahh, apologies, I’ve now seen your earlier response to someone else.
All humans are either male or female. You are not a man therefore like it or not you are a woman.
No amount of verbal or mind gymnastics is going to alter that fact.
Please learn to accept and love the person, woman you are.

I have to honest in many ways I would really prefer to be a bloke, a man. I adore men’s three piece suits for example and wish I could wear one as a man. I wish I could walk home at night without fear of being attacked, raped. I wish I could wander into a pub, prop up the bar and order a beer, no issues. Quite a lot of my hobbies and interests are typically male. But…. fact is I’m female, a woman. A fact which I accept and embrace because there’s no point being miserable about something I cannot change. I

Maybe investigate whether you are autistic, or struggling with social anxiety? Definitely google to see the long term (horrific) effects of chest binding. You can totally wear whatever you want……as a woman. Please learn to love yourself and who you actually are. xxxx

Yes, I know what a birthing person is.

It may contribute to declining care in the way it is currently used, though there are so many other factors that cause horrible maternity care that this sometimes feels like a distraction.

What always gets me in these conversations is that the side that at least wants to appear inclusive in using 'women and birthing person' basically never bring girls into their conversations on how to make maternity services more inclusive. The side that wants the reality that cultural views on sex play into horrible maternity care very rarely bring girls into it - as shown here, the most common thing to say is that only women give birth, only adult human females do... we may think that's how it should be, but that's not reality.

Both leave out girls who give birth, the child human females who are the mothers most likely to suffer from pregnancy complications, lifelong birth injuries, more likely to be abused by a medical professional during her maternity care, and so much more. I understand why the language use matters, and in discussions on the impact of declining maternity, I think girls - and specifically using that word and recognising that they are still children with bodies that are not fully developed even if they give birth - matters. I would merrily accept 'girls, women, and birthing people' if it meant girls could be clearly in the picture and openly in the conversation around what needs to be done to improve maternity care, even while thinking birthing people is distraction language much of the time.

Except you are having to use two words, biological woman, instead of one word, woman.

And in legislation the words used are woman, man ,female and male. Not biological woman, biological man...

Fascinating stuff @justpassmethemouse so you are a man and can give birth. How does that work exactly? Because men do not have the necessary biology to get pregnant or give birth.
Ergo, you are in fact a woman.

Yes. I feel like such women are not ready to become mothers and put their child’s needs above their own.

A child needs its mother, that is one of the more basic human needs. A mother that can’t accept that’s what she is, is not considering her child. It’s cruel.

Utterly misguided or activist medical professionals will cause harm if their beliefs lead them further down the path of approving the use of testosterone by pregnant women. Some have already reached that heinous stage.

The problem is, that by using such language, the nct puts everyone else off their services. I think it was the nct rep who said this. I could be wrong.

This works until other people are obliged to play along, whether they want to or not. For example I don't object to some random bloke deciding to call himself a woman...fine, whatever etc....I object to being told that I have to pretend to think he's a woman or risk losing my job and being prosecuted for hate speech.

Words are important.

We write laws in them. We tell stories in them. We understand our history through them. If a word changes what it means in common use, eventually we no longer correctly interpret things written before the change took hold.

What is a word that unequivocably refers to the people who are encompassed by "the concept of a biological woman" please?

So if a woman gets pregnant but loses the baby is she a miscarrying person? Because that’s the logic here. Reduce women to body parts and bodily functions in a way that is NEVER done to men

I simply do not believe that someone can use their body to do the most female thing possible (pregnancy, childbirth and breastfeeding) and that the intense physicality of that constant reminder of their femaleness is not a problem, but seeing the word “mother” is unbearable. Get to fuck.

Woman is just a word. The actual concept of a biological woman is defined and clear. I don’t really get why words and terms we use to refer to the concrete truth of a biological woman matter. There are hundreds of words in different languages for it. In our own language there are different words for it, too. Birthing person is just one more term that falls under the umbrella of biological woman. Nobody is redefining what a biological woman is.

That's nice for you.

I do care if I am defined as "a female person who is whatever that thing that stops a non-woman birthing person being a woman is."

As a Feminist I reject the idea that there are ways of being female that are not already encompassed by the word "woman", so I do not consider it reasonable to impose upon me or any other women a definition of "woman" that means anything less.

I don’t really think it’s that complex. There’s still only one category. Biological woman. That is the legal and medical term. You’re either a biological woman or you aren’t, and nothing can change that.

Different biological women like different ways of referring to themselves. Woman, cis woman, mother, birthing person… all just terms that can refer to biological women.

As long as the definition for biological women is set and clear, which I think it basically is, I don’t think it matters if people wanna use their own labels.

Because when institutions accept there is a way to be female that is not "a woman", they impose a value-based differentiation not just on the women they are trying to accomodate, but on all the other women who are now not just female, but female and whatever "that thing that stops a non-woman birthing person being a woman" is.

I mean, is that not obvious? Trans identifying people are not the only people impacted when they redefine words.

I dislike this attempt to try to change the language to protect the feelings of a few—a few who know that biologically they are women, however they may choose to identify. Why pretend otherwise? I'd have thought being called a woman or expectant mother would be the least of anyone's worries, if pregnant and preparing to give birth. The whole experience must be a constant reminder of one's sex, so why the need to deny it in our word choices? Personally, I won't be playing along.

As a woman in the simple biological sense I find it incredibly offensive. It's like saying "Mancunians and people from Didsbury". I'm sure the people from Didsbury love it but the rest of Manchester is going to be pretty offended!

@FlirtsWithRhinos I wouldn't finding it any more offensive to be called a man than people asking whether I was pregnant when I struggled to shift the baby weight.

I would have shrugged and moved on.

@FlirtsWithRhinos · Today 19:39
How well you explained that, thank you.

Thank you.

This is a great example of the disordered thinking I am talking about.

Whether you feel "alien" or not, you know you do have an adult female body.

I appreciate that because of of your discomfort/alienation from your body and/or other women and/or the cultural baggage that comes with your body and/or simply the word "woman", you do not like to be called a woman.

And you could have left it there.

But instead you have decided not only that you do not like to be a woman but that you are not a woman.

For your own comfort, you have unilaterally decided that the word "woman" needs to means something other than adult human female so that you can differentiate yourself from this other thing by the symbolic act of disowning the word woman.

This is such an overreach on your part.

Because "Woman" does not simply refer to you. It refers to half of humanity. Billions of people.

It is simply not fair, not reasonable, unbelieveably far from reasonable, to redefine womanhood, to separate us all from our bodies and our history, based simply on your own discomfort.

After all, what you describe could equally well be experienced by someone who feels they don't belong in their native culture, or their race. I'm sure many people born in France would say "I don't feel French", or Japanese people who feel estranged from being "Japanese", but nevertheless, they are.

Or taking race, here are some pretty awful historic and indeed current attitudes held by some White people. Would it be reasonable for me to say that because these facts about Whiteness in our culture make me uncomfortable, I am not in fact White regardless of my skin colour?

And if it is reasonable of me to define myself as not White, what does that mean for all other white people in the world? Do they now also have to declare their unWhiteness or be assumed to be unquestioning supporters of the all those things I reject as White?

If you want to differentiate between yourself and others of your sex, be additive. Let "woman" continue to be simply the body baseline that we all share and that undenably has meaningful consequences for us, and find new words to describe yourself that you can be as well as a woman.

That is the only way you can be true to yourself without overreaching into lying about everyone else.

Because let us be clear, you actually have no idea how I would feel if someone said "you're a man". You think you do, because your belief that you do not think "like a woman" requires the implicit assumption that you know how [other] women, the people who are not you, must be thinking. But the reality is that all this is still just inside your own head, just your own prejudices and assumptions projected onto others and echoing back to you.

In fact, because I am an intelligent, thinking person, my actual reaction would be curiousity. Most likely, what I would do is ask "why do you think I'm a man?"

If they said, "because you are biologically male" then I would disagree, obviously, because I am not.

But if they said "because you act/do/say XYZ" and if that was true, I would say "well, yes I do. That is true of me. But that isn't what I understand a man is, why do you think it should be?"

What I would not do is find it uncomfortable or alienating. Because that assumes an investment in and identity with being "Not a man" that I simply do not have. I identify with - I am - my body. To the degree that "woman" is the name for that body I am a "woman" and not a "man". But that is all it is.

@justpassmethemouse
Sorry I should just clarify that i find that research really interesting.

Because two of my children are autistic and have dyslexia, my daughter also has dyspraxia.

They do sometimes offer genetic testing on diagnosis of autism especially where there is more than one family member with the diagnosis.

It's highly offensive to suggest that a chromosomal difference such as this means a person is intersex. That's not how they will experience their life. From the research it seems that very few people even know that they have such chromosomal differences.

It is also highly offensive to co-opt these conditions to explain why you are female but don't want to be considered a woman. This has nothing to do with the gender stereotyped boxes that you said you don't fit into upthread.

No they are not arguing that these people are intersex. They are claiming that chromosomal differences explain dyspraxia and dyslexia. Read the link you actually posted.

From the link you posted -

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Symptoms
Symptoms That Could Be Indicative Of An X & Y Chromosomal Variation

Infancy
Feeding Difficulties – trouble latching on or sucking from the bottle, or was a slow feeder
Texture Avoidance – coughs and/or gags when tasting new food textures
Delayed Ambulation – independent walking after 18 months of age
Congenital Muscular Torticollis – a tilting of the head towards the shoulder due to the shortening of the sternocleidomastoid muscle that is present from birth
Delayed Speech – rarely babbling between 6 and 12 months, or producing no sounds; a “quiet” baby

Preschool
Hypotonia – low muscle tone, particularly in the trunk
Speech and Language Delay – receiving services for speech delay
Sensitivity to Touch – tags in clothing, fusses at haircuts, dislikes getting hair shampooed
Motor Discoordination – difficulty in gross motor skills and fine motor tasks, contralateral movements
By age 3, child uses very few three-word combinations.

School Age
Behavioral Outbursts – seems to ‘explode’ for no reason several times per day
Shyness – more shy or timid than other children in social settings or at school
Clumsiness – falling for no reason, bumping into things often, avoiding sports
Social Language Differences – expressive communication is often delayed in comparison to auditory comprehension, and there could be an incidence of social anxiety
Fine Motor Skills – has difficulty with handwriting, using scissors, hands tire
Reading delays

Adolescence
Delayed Puberty – has not entered pubertal development at same age as peers
Pes Planus – flat-footedness, particularly if only member of family who has it
Tall for his age – height above the 95th centile
Language-based Learning Disorder – persistent difficulty with language-based learning, particularly reading and/or expressive vocabulary
Attentional issues – Attention Deficit Hyperactivity Disorder (ADHD), Attention Deficit Disorder (ADD)
Executive dysfunction and associated organization and planning deficits
Decreased muscle tone and strength

Please tell me how this research links to intersex people?

I accept that you have not borne a baby but YOU SAID that you have the type of body that will allow you to carry a child and that as your partner does not have that kind of body you will have that responsibility. You also said you were 'assigned female at birth'.

This means you are female with every fibre of your body. The word for adult human females is women.

@justpassmethemouse I am really interested to understand your point of view. You seem happy to describe yourself as female but not a woman. Are you able to explain how you see these as different? As to me they are the same thing.

I'm a breast cancer survivor, had a mastectomy, have PCOS so have facial hair (that i get rid of), always wear trousers and am good and typical "male" things like DIY and am really strong and muscular. But I see myself as just as female and "womanly" as a curvy woman who wears pink enjoys stereotypical "female" things like shopping and getting her nails done.

I'm intrigued as to how you separate "female" and "woman" in your mind as to me they are exactly the same thing (obviously not including female animals etc).

By this logic would you be comfortable in the NHS labelling services for people with eating disorders such as anorexia "services for fat people"? It would make them more comfortable and more likely to access those services.