That prayer to Jesus is inappropriate at a company party?

But some do - if they want to pray, they can, if you dont believe, you quietly just let the prayer pass you by. People need to respectfully accept that both belief systems exist and both are OK.

I’m not religious, but I think a prayer at a Christmas party isn’t that wild? It’s literally a Christmas party…

In my long experience of the world of education, objections to Christian traditions and practices in schools came from over-thinking white people in County Hall, and never from other religious or ethnic groups.

The Muslims and Hindus I met understood and respected religious observance. This might not be a universal attitude, but it was where I worked.

(I'm an agnostic but worked at one time in a C of E school, with many families from other religious groups and they were always cool with the nativity plays, Easter services etc, as was I, being culturally Christian and not giving a hoot about hyprocrisy etc if it was fun and interesting).

it is deeply inappropriate

I used to hold both of these misconceptions (Christmas trees and saturnalia) but once I looked into academic research I found I was wrong so I thought it was worth mentioning.

I've read quite a lot on it as well. Can you post links to the academic research you've read?

What I do find really frustrating about threads like these is the word “offence”. I wouldn’t be offended by a prayer from any religion at a work Christmas party. I would think it was inappropriate, annoying, cloth eared and unprofessional. There are responses apart from total acceptance or offence. The only circumstances where I can imagine it possibly being appropriate is if it was an overtly Christian organization. Or (just thought of this one!) if it’s a formal dinner at something like one of the Inns of Court or a Livery Company that has a Grace that’s been said every year since the Reformation.

This is fine and you can do whatever you want. Many non religious people enjoy doing things that began as religious or even still are. Many atheists love attending carol services.. James Partridge had a set at Glastonbury singing assembly songs and it was so popular they had to close the entrance to the field!

it’s just that I used to hold both of these misconceptions (Christmas trees and saturnalia) but once I looked into academic research I found I was wrong so I thought it was worth mentioning.

@Rhayader

When you say " except that the Eastern Orthodox Church also celebrate Christmas around the same time of year and they did not celebrate saturnalia.".

Considering the Eastern Orthodox Church was not founded till 1054, it's not surprising they did not do saturnalia. In any case, nobody is saying the early Church done Saturnalia, they are saying it was appropriated/ stolen/subsumed/ converted by the early Church, specifically the Romans. It was a Roman thing after all.

You also contradict yourself. You say decorated trees was started as (Goodwins alert) Nazi propaganda, then say it was a German pagan thing. What came first, the Nazis or the Pagans ? Then you say it was medieval. What one is it ?

it’s a common misconception that the origins are non-Christian.

The suggestion isn't that "the origins are non-Christian". It is that various earlier traditions got rolled in early on, such that the word "Christmas" refers to several different celebrations/traditions, all of equal validity and importance.

Whether Christians like it or not, there is a huge set of secular traditions that are celebrated by non-Christians who use the term "Christmas" due to the many overlaps with the Christian festival. Those traditions have as much importance as the Christian ones and its really rude to be dismissive of them. I'm not Christian and never have been, you won't see a nativity scene in my home, but you will see an evergreen tree and wreath, lots of candles, seasonal feasting and foods (nuts, oranges etc).

Loving the idea of middle aged Muslims sitting round sharing fond memories of Christian assemblies.

But a Christmas party is esssntially a celebration of the birth of Jesus. Why is it inappropriate to honour his birth at a party in his name?

Because "Christmas" does not solely refer to the Christian celebration of the birth of Jesus?!

These days the word is also used (collectively) to refer to numerous secular traditions based around midwinter:

• feasting/special seasonal foods
• celebrations of fire & light (yule logs, candles etc)
• gift giving
• wassailing

I really hate when Christians try to dismiss all the secular elements of this time of year. Lots of atheists celebrate the secular traditions. The Christian church subsumed a lot of existing traditions pre dating it when it spread through medieval europe. Its not a coincidence that Christmas falls just after the shortest day of the year/midwinter, it was set then in the 4th century to coincide with Roman pre existing Saturnalia festivals & Aurelian's festival celebrating the "unconquered sun".

I don’t disagree that Christmas has become largely a commercial holiday but it’s a common misconception that the origins are non-Christian.

I assume you are referring to the idea that it began as a distraction for saturnalia? This might make sense except that the Eastern Orthodox Church also celebrate Christmas around the same time of year and they did not celebrate saturnalia. The early church thought Jesus died on the same calendar day that he was conceived.. some maths about when that was based on the known conception of John the Baptist (as his dad was away for a religious festival when he heard his wife was pregnant) puts that around March/April for Jesus’ death. Both branches of the church plot that back to the end of December for his birth date (although a few days off from each other due to complexities in de-ciphering the Jewish calendar).

Or you could be referring to the tradition of defeating Christmas trees which people assume came from pagan traditions. This was actually Nazi propaganda and part of the justification for nazis taking Christ out of Christmas — this is where Christmas markets come from so there’s some truth to the idea there! the nazis pushed the idea that the whole of Christendom decorated trees because it was a German pagan tradition and this showed the might of the Germans.

But Christmas trees were not an tradition until late medieval times and one theory is that they were initially as part of performances of Bible stories like the creation story where they would have a tree with decorated apples etc and the tradition of decorating trees for Christmas came from that, it’s actually pretty recent in the grand scheme of things.

It's mid winter in Ireland and UK, the longest night of the year is 21 December

And advent is the countdown to Christmas

Why is that ridiculous, we don't know what was said.

It would be really easy to write a pre dinner prayer that could end up with a police hate speech investigation. Full on Westbro' Baptist style, or Pastor Kevin Swanson ( him of drown gay people fame).

And these folk who could be called Christian fundies, or extremists, would not be making anything up, because it is all in the Bible.

Check out what Paul said in Romans 1:32 " Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them. " (KJV)

And now look up the list of things in the previous verses that Paul considers crimes worthy of death. It's a long list.

For sure, folk can point to this post and say, " Look, we seem to have an atheist cherry picking the bad bits from the Bible". To counter that, I would just point out that it is not me cherry picking, It's the people who say the Bible is all love and peace who are doing the cherry picking.

So yeah, I can certainly see how Christian prayers at a secular function could be seen as problematic.

Some of us don't celebrate Christmas in mid winter you know. Most of us, however we celebrate, understand the meaning of it (and don't feel the need for a mid winter festival of excess).

Also, how is December 25th "mid winter"?

Exactly. I couldn't care less if another religious group said prayers at a function I was at. Inappropriate is a much overused word these days.

Don’t be ridiculous. I guarantee that’s not what was said. I’ve attended work dos for other religions and never been offended. A lot of middle aged Muslims who attended church schools have fond memories of Christian assemblies.

I can see why white British atheists might find the grace a bit cringey. But not offensive. I think offence is such a damaging sentiment.

Christmas has long roots that pre date Christianity. We all need a mid winter festival of excess.

Part of me thinks that this is what happens when you’re encouraged to bring your whole self to work and work events. One minute it’s great and nobody feels a need to hide their faith, or pretend that they’re married to someone of the opposite sex. The next minute, someone takes it too far and you’ve got prayers being said over the buffet, people are talking about safe spaces and Keith from accounts is wearing latex on Dress Down Fridays.

The other part of me is wondering how some random woman had the power to make you feel like you had to bow your head if you didn’t want to join in with her prayer.

How about this ?

" Bless you all, in the name of Jesus, the one and only true Lord, And a reminder for all here, if you don't fall to your knees and worship Jesus, the only true one, you will burn in hell for eternity. Merry Christmas"

This is too often overlooked in Christianity. The whole message of the religion is to join their club, and if you don't it's off to hell you go.

Are you offended personally of in behalf of other people?

Saying Grace and spreading blessings and thanks is a harmless, thoughtful thing to do. I suspect the Muslims and Jews there weren’t offended at all.

I am not so sure about that. Rather depends on what she said.

There are plenty of snowflake Christians who get offended by words spoken by other Christians. Hell, we have had loads of wars over it.

I will just park this here, an example of how loads of Christians were offended when another Christian reminded them of what their Jesus said. It would appear that many Christians are even offended by what is written in their own book :-)

Trump calls National Cathedral bishop "nasty in tone" after her sermon urges him to "have mercy" - CBS News