That prayer to Jesus is inappropriate at a company party?

Ah right. So It's a battle of academic qualifications then :-)

Nah, that's out of my lane.

When will the encyclopedias be updated?

Brittanica says :

"One widespread explanation of the origin of this date is that December 25 was the Christianizing of the dies solis invicti nati (“day of the birth of the unconquered sun”), a holiday in the Roman empire that celebrated the winter solstice as a symbol of the resurgence of the sun, the casting away of winter, and the Heralding of the rebirth of spring and summer."

And :

"A second view suggests that December 25 became the date of Jesus’ birth by a priori reasoning that identified the spring equinox the date of the creation of the world and the fourth day of creation, when the light was created, as the day of Jesus’ conception(i.e., March 25). December 25, nine months later, then became the date of Jesus’ birth. For a long time the celebration of Jesus’ birth was observed in conjunction with his baptism. celebrated January 6."

No mention of John the Baptist.

No I don’t. It definitely used to be accepted but it is not anymore. That’s a very outdated view. If the link I posted one above works for you that’s a very good read from probably the most famous researcher of Christianity (who happens to not be a Christian) on why he used to think that but changed his mind.

Fair enough. As I said, it was first result and I just read the abstract.

Instead of getting into a papers war, do you accept that the scholarly consensus is that Christmas was borrowed from the Pagans ?

Even if you don't agree with that theory.

This

Because it is a holiday of cultural significance. As you well know.

I subscribe to his blog and he’s not of that view! I don’t know how much is open to unsubscribed so I’ve posted a screenshot

https://www.bartehrman.com/why-is-christmas-on-december-25th/

Nah, it's fine. Chill out.

Get this. I was at a Hen Party once and as I was about to tuck into hamburgers, the venue host started saying something and everyone joined their hands and I realised it was some kind of grace.

It was in Friesland (conservative north of Holland) and the venue owners, speaking that language, were clearly religious even though the hen was not. I had been talking loudly in English and it took a few moments before I realised what was going on and shut up!

That's fine, but why celebrate Christmas then ?

I am familiar with it ta, but can't access sorry because I am in a country with very restricted internet.

You mentioned Bart Ehrman to a PP though, and he is in the Pagan origin camp.

So there is that. The article you posted above is far from the scholarly consensus.

If you’re looking for something accessible (both, not a paywall and easy to understand) then religion for breakfast is a great YouTube channel for popular research videos on all religions and he’s done a video on it.

@Peridoteage

I suspect that if, following Mavis' prayer, Clive from IT Support had got up and said, 'I'd like you all to join me in a worshipful supplication to our demon Lord Lucifer to watch over us this evening and bestow upon us the gift of his hot chaos and malevolence as we revel and debauch,' then Mavis might have been disinclined to bow the respectful head, except to hurriedly text HR.

Well a couple of ladies I worked with told me just that. They enjoyed the hymns and the sense of belonging. It never threatened their own religious identities. They were also nostalgic about the British school food of their childhoods.

Not all Christian researchers are Christian! Probably the most famous researcher of Christianity is a well known atheist (Bart Ehrman)

I Can't access that paper by the American society of Church History, I can just get the first page.

I did find an interview with the author of that article though.

Interview - Dr. Philipp Nothaft on the Date of Christmas - History for Atheists

And note this bit from above " But Philipp and several other recent scholars have bolstered an alternative theory that seems to fit the evidence better, as he’ll discuss with me today."

It's not settled then.

Good link you posted. But not enough to covert me :-)

Lots of people are fussed about this. I accept that it is a tangent to the thread though! Just a bit of a nerdy interest of mine (the studies of religions in general).

interested in why you think the Eastern Orthodox church also decided to celebrate Christmas around the same time of year if it comes from saturnalia? And if you know anything about saturnalia is really is quite different to Christmas (although gift giving is shared between them — generally joke gifts though for some weird reason). It was mostly a holiday where slaves and masters swapped places in their social roles.

This is probably the best summary https://www.jstor.org/stable/23358685

This is from Church History, the journal of the American society of church history, its a Christian focussed society, so hardly unbiased. Its focussed on the identification of the date of Christmas rather than considering the origins of the festive traditions many people celebrate today.

Were you never nine?

Or they could quietly pray and let the non prayers get on with it? Just a thought. It’s even recomended in the Bible!

Rhyader

No one is really fussed about what determines the precise day Christmas is celebrated on. Thats a very Christian focus, atheists tend to view the festivities as seasonal.

What is clearly true:

• Saturnalia predates the birth of Christ (see writings BCE from roman Republic eg Livy, Cicero, Catullus) & was celebrated at a similar time of year
• the modern Christmas festival covers the same time period & shares similar traditions of feasting and gift giving.

The likelihood is that traditions were shared/borrowed between various festivals.

This author does not appear to be a religious studies researcher, they teach business courses. And this isn’t published in an academic journal either, this is just a self publish of their idea which is debunked by most researchers int christian history (it’s the sol invictus theory I mentioned above). This is their cv: csde.academia.edu/NicolaeSfetcu/CurriculumVitae

I can imagine a church-going staff member approaching a manager to suggest a blessing in the spirit of Christmas and them thinking “We’re going to have to allow this or we’ll be all over the Daily Mail on Monday morning”.

”BRITISH COMPANY BAN CHRIST FROM CHRISTMAS IN A CHRISTIAN COUNTRY”

- if they want to pray, they can, if you dont believe, you quietly just let the prayer pass you by.

No one is objecting to private prayer. The problem is that this individual couldn't resist pushing it on others. Why did it need to be shared publicly if not coming from a place of "spreading the word of Jesus". It's the spreading the word part that is unwelcome.

Interested in what you’ve read?

This is probably the best summary https://www.jstor.org/stable/23358685

essentially: saturnalia ran from 17-23rd December so having Christmas just after would be a stupid way to distract.

Some people say “oh well it replaced Sol invictus which was 25th but the earliest evidence of it being celebrated on the 25th was from 274ad and the evidence is that it was moved to this date to distract from Christmas.

It was established Jewish tradition that great prophets died on the same day they were conceived - it’s known at the integral age theory if you want to look it up.

also see: william tighe, celebrating Christmas (2003), Andrew mcgowen, how December 25th became christmas (2002)

Can you post a link to the academic research ?

I just done a search, and first paper I got says Pagan, and Saturnalia.

(PDF) Origins of Christmas (academia.edu)