To think midwife’s get a rubbish deal compared to teachers?

I’m a teacher and work 10-12 hour days, 5 days a week. Those extra hours added up basically negate all the holidays. I also work in the holidays preparing for the new term. Both professions are woefully underpaid compared to most graduate professions.

Op it’s the most random comparison- I know it’s because they are the two that need to be chosen between, but of course a teacher has certain hours and certain holidays, and of course a midwife can’t do predictable hours and predictable holidays!!!

I couldn’t be either, see both as vocations and invaluable assets to society.

In England a degree, a years teacher training (various types) then two years as an ECT.

If you’re a community midwife you might have paperwork outstanding which you do in the evening. But certainly nothing like what teachers have to do.

The good thing about being a hospital midwife is that once your shift is finished then you have handed over all your work.

What prep, marking and planning do midwives take home every night and every weekend?

midwife's what? Why can nobody punctuate correctly?

This is true but with nursing, one of those shifts is likely to be a night shift, so that effectively the next day is also written off as you need to sleep.
Shift work can havoc with a person's own health.

My mum used to teach. When I was a junior doctor in the bad old days of the 90s, working insane hours, my mum still worked longer hours than me when you counted all the time for planning, prep, paperwork, and marking. Teachers work a lot more hours than it looks like on paper.

I think teacher training colleges would expect this.

When I was teaching, I certainly had prospective student teachers shadowing for 2 - 3 days.

I used to be a midwife. Regular shift pattern was 0730 to 2030 (but usually I was there til 2130 unpaid) x3 a week plus a four day week once a month. Did days, nights and weekends. It was very stressful, constantly understaffed and I knew I wasn’t delivering the standard of care I wanted to give. I was always worried something would go wrong. It’s very difficult to have a family life unless you have childcare overnight, early mornings and evenings.

Both have an element of being vocational careers. You are cut out to be a midwife or a teacher. It's not really a big choice at the end of the day.

Agree, I work part time as a midwife and enjoy it but many of the full timers are burned out

Not sure your figures are right? I’m a community midwife, work 9-5pm, not in management and my basic FTE pay is 46.5k (outside of London) I get 8.2 weeks a year holiday (including bank holidays) I also get unsocial hours pay +30% for nights and Saturdays and +60% for Sundays
i absolutely love where I work but there are a lot of midwives who are very unhappy with their jobs because of the working conditions, a lot to think about really. I have friends who are teachers and not an easy job to go into either

☝🏻THIS

I see the MN obsession with teaching continues unabated. Good-o.

Teacher here! I can guarantee that I have NEVER left school at 15:30 😂
When do you think meetings happen??? I get to school at 7am and leave most evenings at 6pm - most teachers in my school do. Holidays - aka catch-up time.

Teachers are usually paid for 5.6 weeks holiday and not 13 weeks.
NASUWT | Directed Time (England)

Our teachers work 8.15am to 4.15am and longer for those with responsibilities.
I would image saving a life would be a fantatstic accomplishment.

I see it is is a joke, LizTruss.

Is this a joke? I work in a secondary school, mainly teaching A level and GCSE students. I average a 70 hour week and work a lot in holidays. No overtime paid.
Both are vocations. Not career choices for those looking for a quick buck.

My daughter has just started teaching. She had to do a PGCE year, after she got her degree a few years ago. It was a tough year and cost a fortune.
Since starting her ECT, she is in school for 7.45am. She runs after school clubs. She has weekly afterschool ECT meetings, faculty meetings and bus duty responsibility. She has already had 2 parents evenings and stays late to do marking, lesson planning etc. She has been sworn at, had loads of crap from parents and cannot believe some of the behaviour….
She does not get paid overtime or unsocial hours.
Let’s stop comparing. They are both worthwhile jobs, but very very different.

Both midwives and teachers in the public system have crappy jobs mediocre pay but relatively good pensions and benefits like sick pay/annual leave etc.

However considering that both professions have a massive shortage of experienced staff and poor staff retention I’d strongly advise reconsidering career options if those are your only choices.

As a midwife there’s aspects of teaching I’d hate (much prefer the greater flexibility in midwifery) but on the other hand I’ve never met a teacher who has worked more than 24 hours straight and I certainly have as a midwife and it’s becoming more prevalent in the current times of crisis.

Both jobs have limited ways out, both jobs have similar toxic cultures and management , both jobs have some really high highs and some really low lows but in the long term there are better jobs out there than either.

I am a midwife.

I also initially started teacher training after my first degree (well over a decade ago now) and realised very quickly it wasn't for me.

Both are hard. And I think both are professions you have to really, really want to do.

I find I can do midwifery, and work with all the shit stuff that's going on, because I care about it, I felt called to it in a way I wasn't to teaching. I think this is really important for your sister to consider because conditions in midwifery (as I've heard they are in teaching too) are really tough at the moment, many NHS trusts are in a lot of debt which impacts staffing and resources, and the profession is under a lot of scrutiny due to recent national maternity safety reports.

A few other points that have come up.

Midwifery is at minimum a three year degree, followed by 1-2 year preceptorship after which midwives should progress to band 6. There is ongoing CPD and mandatory training throughout your career to maintain and improve knowledge and skills. There are opportunity to complete postgraduate training, either standalone level 7 modules or MScs to gain more advanced training, which a fair few midwives (including myself) do. This can help with progressing into more senior band 7 or above roles.

In terms of pay etc. it really isn't a job you do for the money. Enhanced unsociable hour rates do help. Although last year my trust made the very unpopular decision to stop enhanced pay for bank shifts due to the level of debt they're in, the removal of this "perk" is the sort of thing that makes conditions worse!

Ditto, you don't do it for the regular hours and guaranteed holidays. I would love to spend the whole Christmas period with my kids but I knew what I was getting into when I chose this career.

Records are kept for a minimum of 25 years in case a child wants to pursue a medical negligence case. I don't know how common it is for a child to do this, but many parents do. Maternity and obstetrics have the highest litigation costs of any medical field. It's such a big thing that being involved in an investigation and going to court was actually part of my midwifery training. Midwifery is an autonomous profession, so we are responsible for making decisions that can mean life or death.

I can't speak for the ins and outs of teaching because I wasn't in it for long enough. I knew it wasn't something I could do, and I will always have a great deal of respect for those who can. They're two different careers that both take the right person. I guess your sister needs to figure out which one she's right for and which (if either) is right for her.

My sister is trying to choose between midwifery and teaching. Both seem so different

They are really different.

I think your sister needs to do some proper research into it rather than listen to you 'not being goady about teaching, but...' and make her own choices.

Generally, people who go into a job do it because they are really interested in it to begin with, and then they stay in it because they love it.

Your sister obviously needs to think about what she's interested in and what she'd love to do.

You having an epiphany that you'd thought teaching was really hard but now you've looked into it for 45 seconds and decided it's actually much easier than you'd thought, is probably not helpful.

Yes. You have to do this before applying for a PGCE. Love the 'reported overtime'. When do you think lessons are planned, work marked, reports written, resources made, parents met, etc. I have 2 hours a week to do stuff in the 33 contact hours a week when I am not with kids. Lunch/break is catch up or detention or duty. So I spend Sundays working and start at 7am and finish about 6pm on a good day. Parents evenings often end at 9pm though.

Should she be doing either if she has no particular passion for either?