We need to talk about men needing to be partners, not 'providers and protectors'

Certainly not.

I'm not a fragile, second class individual.

Often because a household with two ft workers can be really unsatisfying for all. If both partners are in work that lacks flexibility, or takes massive energy be it mental, physical, or in terms of time, and especially if they don't then earn enough to pay for help, many people find that family life pretty unbearable.

Once there are kids there are school pick ups, sick days, appointments, cooking cleaning and errands taking up evening and weekend time,

In my experience most households find things far less stressful, and also find they are able to spend their off hours together as a family, when there is one person either at home, or working a more flexible part time job.

And that's all the more attractive when people are working jobs that barely cover childcare costs, or which are not all that fulfilling, or if there are kids with extra needs be they struggling in some way, or are gifted, or something else.

Sorry, didn't get through the whole OP, but it's all very well saying men don't need to be providers right up until the wife decides she doesn't really want to go back to full time work once the kids are at school. There have been many many threads on here from women that want to stay PT.

You've laid out a massive false dichotomy OP. Why is it one or the other? Does being a partner mean a couple always have to play identical roles?

I would just point out tat while it's nice and fine for people to live a life where they both work in similar kinds of well paying jobs with similar levels of responsibility, where technology means that men's and women's work is broadly similar, where work itself is very fulfilling, and where the kids are healthy and the schools are good

• that is a very privileged position first of all, and
• it's not somehow more moral or civilised or better than other ways of life.

So I think YABVVU and also pretty narrow minded.

I can't find who posted the original quote in this but I really agree with it.

My two grandfathers were sole providers for big families - but also knew that the work their wives did made the family survive. Both were providing. From the stories told by my parents (both born in late 20s) their fathers came home, helped out, polished shoes, were involved with their children.

Decent men are decent men in every generation. The problem with this generation is that social media is spreading some very stupid ideas - toxic masculinity, Andrew Tate (is that him?), trad wives, ballerina farm - utter unrealistic crap. .

Do women not want to protected and provided for?

I think some men still feel that to provide financially for their family makes them a "man". A lot of the time, for men like that, literally nothing else matters; making money is the be all and end all. My ex-husband was like this, and he felt completely emasculated by the fact that I insisted on maintaining my career after the children were born.
Unfortunately by the time partners of these men realise this is all he has to offer, they have foolishly become dependent upon him and it's incredibly difficult to find a way out.

I'm glad you said this because I thought I must be in a parallel universe. I haven't heard the provider and protector message since about 1973.

Your DH sounds lovely, and I have to say I agree with you. There is a middle ground between being obsessed with becoming a masculine archetype and asking your postpartum wife to transfer you half the mortgage payment pronto, and personally that's where I wish men would aim.

Ok, I’ll stick my head above the parapet.

I think there’s a lot of merit in protect and provide, and I think that men who have those instincts are the ones whose marriages are most likely to survive.

We functioned as equal partners before we had dc, both basically doing the same thing. When dc1 was born, dh quietly got on with the providing bit, without any resentment. It never occurred to him that I should pay 50% of bills out of maternity pay, and make up the shortfall in earnings. Instead he was thinking about pensions, updating wills, and looking at insurance policies. He never once complained about the stress of being the only earner.

He recognised and valued the mum and baby bond, and went out of his way to protect that space for us. He fielded over-enthusiastic relatives, cooked, cleaned, and made his mil feel welcome when I needed my mum, drove me to appointments and advocated for medical help when I was being dismissed and ignored.

When I was a hormonal mess, he was a rock of calm, quiet support. He took turns with feeds to give me longer stretches of sleep. Home and family are the centre of his life. He ducks out of lad’s nights, and stags and comes home early from work parties because he’d rather spend time with us.

I just think “protecting and providing” might need to be reclaimed from the knuckle draggers, the alt right, the fundamentalists, etc.

"The reality is the men who would have been hard workers 100 years ago are still doing it. They are doing softplay, taking their kids to the dentist, taking paternity leave, doing reading practice, cooking etc etc. The men complaining are the ones who never would have thrived in a traditional environment either."

This is a really interesting way to put it and I think you're onto something. The men who obsess the most over traditional gender roles are the ones who would actually be least able to cope with them. My ex-fiance really struggled with his low-stress 9-5 job but was so singularly obsessed with becoming an investment banker that he ruined both our lives for several years; the relationship ended with him screaming abuse at me and threatening me because he had spent so long under all this self-created pressure.

Sexist crap.

I think thats why the protector thing is hardwired to be attractive. Protection from other men.

If Dh wasn’t willing to protect me (I’m way more aggressive than he is so it’s not that I’m a wallflower) I just couldn’t find him attractive. it’s not a conscious decision, I just feel that way. Thats why I think theres a sliver of truth in the manosphere discourse but a lot of avoidance of men’s responsibility in their own vision of what ideal male female relationships look like.

As has been said women don’t need men like they used to and legislation has helped here(criminalising marital rape, DV, coercive control, equal pay etc etc) women can earn their own resource and control it too. so whats left of being a man? The hard bits. Being present for your wife and your kids, putting the hard yards in, contributing to the household not by chopping wood but by cooking and cleaning, teach your kids to read instead of teaching your kids to shoe a horse (I know someone here is teaching their kid to shoe a horse).

The reality is the men who would have been hard workers 100 years ago are still doing it. They are doing softplay, taking their kids to the dentist, taking paternity leave, doing reading practice, cooking etc etc. The men complaining are the ones who never would have thrived in a traditional environment either.

Who or what exactly are they supposed to be protecting us from? The only conceivable threats would come from other men, so maybe they all just need to calm the fuck down.

Would also say the majority of women have worked in some capacity or other throughout history. Again it’s that 1950’s american, husband in job, house in the burbs, wife topped up on lithium nonsense which is actually an aberration in human history not the norm.

the thing about the modern workplace is that you don’t have to physically outshine anyone to be good and highly paid. You just have to be smarter, which women can do. So it’s not a problem.

I don't know a single one like this? perhaps because I always worked with wise professional women, often enough the higher earner.

I think you've been seriously misled here. Talk to granny or older relatives. I grew up in the 50s-70s. A single income did not buy a big house/car/foreign holidays/look after three kids unless you were seriously well off and I mean seriously.

1. Women worked. Part time, term time but they worked. Often cash in hand so no record. Poor women have always worked btw.
2. Houses were often shared or split. Grandparents upstairs, mum and dad downstairs. Sometimes divided into flats to create an income.
3. Far fewer people had cars and only my friends' wealthy grandparents had a new one. Mostly they were second hand and then some. They broke down often.
4. No central heating or sophisticated appliances like dishwashers until the late 70s. Even then the heating was used very moderately.
5. You obviously missed the delightful 15% mortgages of the 80s/early 90s.
6. Men's wages actually increased when women joined the workforce.
7. Holidays were in a caravan or boarding house. First foreign holidays for most, mid 1970s. On the back of mum and dad both working.

@YorkshireGoldDrinkerI have a ‘high flying career’ because my ‘qualities’ are I’m pretty damn intelligent and more than equal to most men in that regard thanks. But keep living your trad wife dream.

The only people I've read talking about men being providers and protectors are men and often American men. (I mean no harm, just what I've read). It all seems ludicrously old fashioned to me. I've always out-earned my ExDP and the only people I might need protecting from are men.
It's not hard wired, it's social pressure from the 1950s or similar. Just not relevant today at all.

Yes, thats the problem, these manospnere chats never think about what a trad man actually did. They have this 1950’s middle class notions about manhood. i’m from a non western culture and my dad was dragged out of bed at 5am to plant seeds or harvest from when he was about 5. Men didn’t bitch and moan, men worked from when the sun was up, ate and then worked after their wives were done for the day. They guided their children and taught them how to do what they did. Women had their own jobs, everyone was working, no-one was sitting around drinking maritnis, it was actually tough, much tougher than moaning on x about hot women not wanting to have sex with them. None of these men want to be THAT man. It’s too hard. In the modern world responsible men use the time they aren’t in the fields/down the mine etc parenting and taking care of their households. DH’s father taught his kids carpentry(girls too) we still go to a place where FIL can point out which bits his own children made.

I think anyone too deep in manosphere chat should be sent to the amish for a month to think about it.