Newly trained doctors-you need to know this

I follow a GP on Instagram who has been made redundant

Yes you are right. And I believe there is a similar situation with nurses and midwives.

Most NHS clinical staff are exploited because they care.
Unfortunately administrators and senior managers don't give a shit

Other HCPs are being treated just as appallingly.

The Welsh government has had to step in regarding newly qualified paramedics. They have all been given 2 year fixed term contracts to do their NQP period on band 5 then they will be out when they got band 6. Without the nqp period complete they would be unemployable and their qualification worthless.

There are paramedics from the South Wales valleys working on Anglesey. Some of them were mature students who have partners, families and mortgages hundreds of miles away.

They can't apply for jobs outside Wales because they took burseries, in good faith, that will have to be paid back in full if they leave the Welsh NHS (not sure of the tie in period).

There is no capacity in the rotas so they are all 'relief' staff therefore they have no flow to their shift patterns, so their sleep is badly disrupted by quick turn arounds from days to nights and back again, and they don't have long enough gaps between shifts to get back to their homes and families miles away.

They have been cruelly let down and the government should hang their heads in shame, and then sort something proper out for them.

The BMA management committee are left-wing ideologues who want to pretend sex doesn’t exist.

But do you actually know @Viviennemary or is this just a guess? With a son and daughter in law who are both hospital doctors, I can assure you they have substantial debt. In any case, this sort of misses the point imho. Their treatment, in terms of moving every year whilst under training and all the hurdles that are put in place to continue that training, are bound to cause resentment within their cohort and I have a lot of sympathy for them.

That's terrible.

Honestly I think the BMA are the most useless union ever.

Pay is not the problem. It's these mad working terms and conditions and the open worldwide competition for training posts.

Or is it that doctors can't legally strike about the above only pay?

The whole of Scotland is one deanery - can be sent anywhere in that deanery to work. Not ideal if you are an ST5 perhaps with children at the age of 30.
The insecurity of the training programme especially for the general medical trainees is shocking.

£10,000 pa fees for a minimum of five years, plus rent and living expenses for those years - bearing in mind work load, placement and shorter holidays make it harder to get student jobs like those studying other subjects. How do you think they fund all that? The answer is debt.

Looks like the Times have picked this up.

https://www.thetimes.com/article/d4534d98-1c1a-4699-83fd-4dcd7a363344?shareToken=bed10b9213754d043c6dbb90c3a2f8ae

I don't think junior doctors of whatever they call themselves now, come out with hundreds of thousands of pounds worth of debt. And there's no shortage of applicants. Maybe they should be paid a bit more but let's stop the violin playing.

The obvious solution is that if it isn't possible to shortlist suitable uk candidates then doctors from other countries can apply.

This is what other sensible countries do.

One of the challenges that I don't think has been mentioned so far is that some "deaneries" - the group of hospitals to which resident doctors apply to do their further tracing - are not very popular. It has proved very difficult to get these posts filled by young, UK trained doctors.

We are talking about the FY2s that completed their FY2 year in August, they were unemployed at that point. They may have found employment now but not necessarily as doctors or in the uk.

They do not have employment lined up - does not mean they are yet unemployed.

Resident doctors have gone to OZ after foundation years for the past 20 yrs -sfor many this is an active choice to experience somethng new and jumpr off the treadmill which churns you out so fast you do not know i oyu ahve made the right choice,

If you went ot OZ by choice and did not apply for CT training then that does not mean you were denied a job, you failed ot take part and made a different choice. If oyu applied did not get and then went to Oz totally different scenario.

But surely the whole 'forward planning' thing is completely pointless of those doctors aren't given the opportunity to gain the experience or the training to be able to go further? Its only going to be useful as forward planning if the med students stay here in the UK and train here. If we just keep recruiting experienced doctors from abroad into roles that should be given to these med students then whats the point?

The FY2's aren't unemployed

They are when they complete their FY2 year and don’t have employment lined up.

The FY2's aren't unemployed as, by definition, they're FY2...

And those who you say are taking time out/doing research/going to Aus etc are likely in that group who 'did not bother'.

Having worked non-training posts they're definitely not as good as training jobs. They're also rather thin on the ground as trusts face hiring freezes. The non-training job I did whilst I built up my CV for my ultimate specialty doesn't exist anymore.

Plus do you really think every single FY2 did the BMA survey (not all doctors are BMA members for one)?

I use the word stolen becaus that is what the resident doctors say.

the BMA did their own survey and 30% of the FY2s surveyed did not bother to apply . 59% of training jobs went to British trained grads - I do think it should be a min of 75% but if british grads did not apply then they can not say they did not get a job because of IMGS. IMGS took jobs that were available and they applied for.

Sorry not seeing thousands of unemployed doctors anywhere. Many are in non trainng posts which are as good as the training post, some have taken time out and gone to Oz, NZ etc, some are doing research.

So please tell me where 48% of FY2s are unemployed because that stat does not exist.

Why do you keep using inflammatory language of ‘jobs got stolen’? 48% of FY2 did not get a training place. Are you saying 48% did not bother to apply for a job? Because a thousands were desperate to find a training place annd failed and were competing on an equal footing with over 20,000 overseas candidates who should not have even been considered until British candidates had either been offered a place or found incapable of doing the job.

sorry there is no evidence that 48% of british FY2 are unemployed and their jobs got stolen by overseas doctors. Even the BMAs own study showed that many ha
d not bothered to apply.....

What other UK graduates have to compete against all other global graduates for a UK job? UK medical graduates also have to compete with other UK medical graduates just like any other UK professional graduate has to.

As for jobs not being ‘stolen’ by a ‘foreigner’; when thousands of UK jobs that are the next stage in the career progression are given to overseas applicants leaving 48% of British FY2s unemployed then of course it is the fault of the system that does not offer any priority to UK workers for UK jobs.

If we guaranteed every nurse doctor physio student trained in GB a job then where is the competition to work harder, learn more and evolve.

Choose a career at 17 and we guarantee you a steady income till retirement as long as you tick a few boxes along the way.

I agree the majority of jobs should go to British graduates and they do - as evidence by our own statistics.

Just because you can not get the job you want, on the day that you want it does not mean some bloody foreigner stole it from you. Maybe you were not deemed ready or maybe your references were not good enough.

No competition in any profession will hinder progress and development of that profession. Complacency and arrogance will ensue

Why just ‘starting the process’? Why not immediately make it the same as other jobs, where you can ONLY recruit from abroad if you cannot find sufficiently qualified staff here? It just requires a simple change in categorising registrar posts for immigration. No chapters on workforce planning that have no legal effect, or targets required.

Exactly. If it wasn't such a vital topic, it would be a great joke.
This is why so many young people are either leaving (or planning to once quaified) or giving up and deciding to leave on benefits or a very low income and stay with their parents. There is no incentive to bother working and trying hard anymore. And that's before you even start on the crazy housing market.