Newly trained doctors-you need to know this

Yes, this was on Radio 4 yesterday. Newly qualified doctors unable to get a job.

You’d think we were desperate for extra doctors (lots of them), seeing as it’s so hard to get an GP appointment.

Where is the irony in wanting exactly the same rules to apply here as would apply to our DC should they wish to apply to any other country? All other countries prioritise their own citizens, as they should.

As for immigration being the backbone of the NHS. Why is that ok when thousands of British trained doctors are left unemployed? And other countries find the staff they train are poached? And it is not racist to report experiences of communication difficulties.

Can you not see the irony that you’re appalled that people are “immigrating” here to work but it’s fine for your son to do exactly the same thing in another country. Immigrant workers are truly part of the backbone of the NHS (and I say this having worked in it for years) and implying that they are maiming patients and unable to communicate etc is truly nothing but racism.

Well no, the BMA is occupied by left wing ideologues who deny there is such a thing as sex and are probably for open borders. They think there should just be an unlimited supply of training places for anyone who wants to train here. And when you say it is not what many resident doctors think - those would be the ones who have got the training places, including those who applied from abroad.

Latest offer from Streeting could alter this if accepted

but that is nit what the BMA and many resident doctors think

I have not used IMG for that reason. If an international qualification is up to scratch then there is no reason why a British Citizen can not apply for the job. Equally, it should not be a given that an international student here can. It should be all British citizens (and those with pre-existing permanent residency rights) prioritised over those who would require a work visa. If 100% of spaces can be filled with these candidates then they should be. There is no reason why 20% should be open to international applicants - they should only be open to international applicants if no British applicant was sufficiently qualified to do the job.

It you a re saying all graduates from UK medical schools are priority for a training post, that includes poeple who are on student/work visas and are not citizens.

So what the BMA is actually advocating is for British citizens who have qualified overseas for what ever reason and who the GMC recognise those qualifications should be given less priority than those on a work visa.

Not all UK graduates are British citizens but youa re advicating that some British citizens are less worthy of a training post than other British citizens and other nationalities.

80% of posts should go to British citizens and the remainder to whomever is good enough and applies. That allows people to take a year off, go travelling, work overseas, try differnet things before they decide.

Although quite often the IMG applying for training posts are more experienced than the home grown Fy2 applicants.

That is because they are applying further along in their careers, for a training post designed for doctors completing FY2

Two different things: immigration status - British citizens have the absolute right to return to the UK and apply for work; qualification status - they have to meet standards for training.

So all those British citizens born and raised in the UK whohave gone to Poland, Czzec Caribbean to qualify and there are significant numbers. Do they have the same rights to a training job and work in their own country versus a citizen from another country who came to the UK medical school but is still on a work visa but a UK graduate?

It seems to me that the BMA is not really the problem (other than their inability to negotiate properly before taking strike action which is the last resort rather than the first resort). Imo it seems that there's a fundamental structural problem which leads to a (very) bloated administration, much of which is inadequate anyway. Here's something for you to all ponder. Just about every month, my son and daughter in law's pay is wrong, often significantly wrong with usually an underpayment but sometimes an overpayment. It is worth remembering that if you are in hospital for a significant procedure and the anaesthetist (for example) is a Registrar, whilst they are giving you an anaesthetic they might also be thinking about whether they have enough money to pay their mortgage because their pay has been messed up yet again! That's just one example but the same goes for all the Resident Doctors who are climbing the greasy pole to become Consultants.

Although quite often the IMG applying for training posts are more experienced than the home grown Fy2 applicants. The application system goes on current clinical knowledge and osce's. Plus there are the UK nationals who did their undergraduate degrees in Prague, Warsaw, Caribbean etc who are returning home to work - are they counted as UK or international.

Yes, it’s a thing about unqualified NHS workers doing medical work.

@Whyhaveibeencutoutofmamsnot in the old days, poor quality management were promoted to regional health authorities for special projects. So it’s been a long term problem!

Same with nursing and midwives. They are happy saddle them with life long debt to train, but there are no roles available.

If that is really the BMA's position it makes no sense at all.

I don’t know. It seems such an obvious and easy change. Perhaps it might reduce their argument that the NHS relies on overseas doctors and therefore all immigration is a ‘good thing’? The BMA’s response is that there should be an unlimited supply of training posts for anyone who wants to come here.

@Legobricksinatub what I can't understand is why don't the government just make this very obvious change? They are the government why should they care what the BMA is or isn't doing. Have you written to your MP about it?

Mine refused to take my points onboard. It feels like a weird quirk where some left/liberal people simply cannot concieve there could ever be any downsides to immigration.

What bugs me is that it isn't even reciprocal. At least with the EU we got rights to work there too.

They are also competing on an open market with any doctor, worldwide, who wants to apply here. And thousands of UK candidates are being left unemployed as a result, and having to apply alongside the following years’ cohorts as a result. It must be changed to be like nearly every other job - overseas candidates are only considered if no appropriately qualified UK candidate is available - just like Australia do. But that is not what is happening. The overseas candidates are applying for, and being given posts in, the same popular deanaries as the UK doctors.

Unfortunately not enough FY2s are heading for a training post - they are heading for Australia or a series of locum or junior clinical fellow posts while reapplying for the following intake of training places.

I have come across so many in the SLTs that come in with wild ideas (often that have been trialled and failed before) put them into action then get a promotion at a different trust before the shit hits the fan.
There are a few I see on linked in blowing their own trumpets and posing with the famous at every opportunity.

Unfortunately it is the lower banded admin and clerical who carry the load and are the first to be let go.

A lot of the issues with the NHS date back to the compromises necessary to bring doctors’ private businesses into the NHS, so it was run from the start as a series of fiefdoms rather than a cohesive health system.

Many administrators and managers absolutely do care. But there are also a lot of incompetent ones that just get shoved into another department during reorganisations, or are too expensive to make redundant (incompetency based dismissal is nigh on impossible). Or responsibilities pushed down the chain to low paid clerical staff. You just need to look at the shower of incompetents wheeled out to support the NHS in the Darlington nurses case - senior manager after senior manager denying any responsibility for anything that happens supposedly under their purview.

I think that is an even more different thing than the OP is talking about.