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Original poster

To think that the mansion tax breaks the principles of taxation

159 replies

NorthXNorthWest · 29/11/2025 10:26

Most taxes fall into:
Income you receive
Profit you realise
Spending you choose

Council tax sit outisde of this. Its more like levy based valuation bandings and was a quick and dirty fix after the poll tax fiasco. It is effectively a service charge not a wealth tax.

Whereas mansion tax is the government estimating the value your actual house, then treating this valuation as pure profit then taxing you on this. Given the majority of homes are purchased with mortgages and paid for by already taxed money:

Why is

Mansion Tax = Estmated value × %

More reasonable than

CGT = Profit * % (Profit = Actual sales price - (Purchase price + actutal costs)

With actual costs being renovations not stamp duty or interest paid on your mortgage

I am not in the mansion tax bracket. I do accept that some taxes need to rise but I don't believe this is the solution.

OP posts:
Original poster
NorthXNorthWest · 01/12/2025 16:26

Yes, there’s a lot to like about how the Nordics do things. I have said that several times. It’s a strong model to aspire to. But Labour simply don’t have the tools for the job. Smoke and mirrors, including the mansion tax, won’t fix the very real structural problems this country faces. @poetryandwine

OP posts:
poetryandwine · 01/12/2025 16:05

NorthXNorthWest · 01/12/2025 15:57

As well as high taxes, high-quality services and a well-invested infrastructure, Norway has greater stability because of its sovereign wealth fund. Something we don't have. Why wouldn't they be happier.

Ask them about their capital flight though...

Show quote history

It is well managed. Two of the four main Nordic countries are in budget surplus as of 2024 and one more has low debt. (I do not see data on Iceland or the Faroe Islands)

All the Scandinavian countries are happy, not just Norway with its oil wealth

Original poster
NorthXNorthWest · 01/12/2025 16:00

RedTagAlan · 01/12/2025 15:08

Yup. I held that little gem back :-)

I am sure the PP is well aware of it though.

They also top the human development index rankings. The standard of living metric.

But oddly, they don't rank well on the highest minimum wage tables. So that might be brought up, because the UK does rank fairly high on that.

Then again, Iceland, Denmark, Norway, Sweden and Finland don't have a minimum wage.

We can keep the per capita GDP for tomorrow.

Show quote history

Yup. I held that little gem back :-)

Because you are the only person that knows about Norway and the rest of the nordics 🙄

OP posts:
Original poster
NorthXNorthWest · 01/12/2025 15:57

poetryandwine · 01/12/2025 14:39

The Nordic countries also rate very highly for quality of life, and on happiness indexes. Wonder if there could be a connection?

Show quote history

As well as high taxes, high-quality services and a well-invested infrastructure, Norway has greater stability because of its sovereign wealth fund. Something we don't have. Why wouldn't they be happier.

Ask them about their capital flight though...

OP posts:
Peridoteage · 01/12/2025 15:55

Wealth taxes are ideal though, as they good for preventing too much wealth accumulating in the hands of too few people.

This is exactly what has happened in the last 10 years - wealth has consolidated into the hands of shrinking pool of global elites, and its why we all just feel poorer. The share of global wealth that most ordinary people are sharing has become smaller.

Original poster
NorthXNorthWest · 01/12/2025 15:46

RedTagAlan · 01/12/2025 14:01

Give a man a fish and he eats it. Give a man a fishing rod, and you never bloody see him again cos he will always be out fishing :-)

Nordic states have really high tax. They are famous for it. Helsinki is not a great Hen or Stag destination for a boozy weekend. . They high tax everything.

Random link here "

Highest Tax Paying Countries: Complete List for 2025 | Millionaire Migrant

Quote your bit here : " I save my contempt for the people who hand out sympathy and cheques just to keep people stuck where they are. "

So you seem to say Nordic states have the best system for getting folk off benefits and into work. To strive.

And you have contempt for the people who hand out cheques and sympathy.

Take a guess at what countries lead the world in the size of the Cheques they hand out. Yup, it's the Nordic countries. They have both the highest tax, and hand out the biggest cheques.

Another random link here, with info on that.

Social Safety Nets: Leading Countries Investing in Human Capital Building Economic Health (exaputra.com)

Data from the Nordic states strongly suggest high taxation, and a well funded social safety net does work.

Do you have contempt for the Nordic states ?

Show quote history

My comment wasn’t an abstract attack on welfare. It was a direct response the other poster sneering at savers and mocking the £120k couple being upset about ISAs. A point you’ve conveniently ignored. Dressing up contempt for productive people as ‘sympathy for starving children’ isn’t virtue. It’s posturing.

Your laaazy Nordic ‘gotcha’ only works if you pretend all welfare is the same. That false equivalence is doing Olympic-level heavy lifting. I criticised cheques + passive dependency, not cheques + active systems that tax heavily, retrain and support/push people back into work. That mix of cash, support and pressure is why the Nordics work. We have high tax, weak productivity and failing services. People are allowed to complain about the effects of this.

OP posts:
RedTagAlan · 01/12/2025 15:32

littlebilliie · 01/12/2025 15:15

This is poor taxation. Taxation in your lifetime for something you bought that you paid tax on to buy it with.

it’s a bad premise for the country

By this logic then, scrapping the mansion tax and increasing the inheritance tax is the way to go ?

Sounds ok.

There is talk of deferring the mansion tax till sale or death. So that fits in with the lifetime thing.

littlebilliie · 01/12/2025 15:15

This is poor taxation. Taxation in your lifetime for something you bought that you paid tax on to buy it with.

it’s a bad premise for the country

RedTagAlan · 01/12/2025 15:08

poetryandwine · 01/12/2025 14:39

The Nordic countries also rate very highly for quality of life, and on happiness indexes. Wonder if there could be a connection?

Show quote history

Yup. I held that little gem back :-)

I am sure the PP is well aware of it though.

They also top the human development index rankings. The standard of living metric.

But oddly, they don't rank well on the highest minimum wage tables. So that might be brought up, because the UK does rank fairly high on that.

Then again, Iceland, Denmark, Norway, Sweden and Finland don't have a minimum wage.

We can keep the per capita GDP for tomorrow.

poetryandwine · 01/12/2025 14:39

RedTagAlan · 01/12/2025 14:01

Give a man a fish and he eats it. Give a man a fishing rod, and you never bloody see him again cos he will always be out fishing :-)

Nordic states have really high tax. They are famous for it. Helsinki is not a great Hen or Stag destination for a boozy weekend. . They high tax everything.

Random link here "

Highest Tax Paying Countries: Complete List for 2025 | Millionaire Migrant

Quote your bit here : " I save my contempt for the people who hand out sympathy and cheques just to keep people stuck where they are. "

So you seem to say Nordic states have the best system for getting folk off benefits and into work. To strive.

And you have contempt for the people who hand out cheques and sympathy.

Take a guess at what countries lead the world in the size of the Cheques they hand out. Yup, it's the Nordic countries. They have both the highest tax, and hand out the biggest cheques.

Another random link here, with info on that.

Social Safety Nets: Leading Countries Investing in Human Capital Building Economic Health (exaputra.com)

Data from the Nordic states strongly suggest high taxation, and a well funded social safety net does work.

Do you have contempt for the Nordic states ?

Show quote history

The Nordic countries also rate very highly for quality of life, and on happiness indexes. Wonder if there could be a connection?

RedTagAlan · 01/12/2025 14:01

NorthXNorthWest · 01/12/2025 10:39

'Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day; teach a man to fish and you feed him for a lifetime'.

People struggling don’t need endless handouts to trap them there, they need short-term support and real routes into skills, work and productivity - similar to the Nordic states provision from what I understand of it. Saving drives growth, growth drives wages, and wages pay for benefits and the support that feeds kids. Attack saving and work and you don’t help the poor or starving children you just make the river have fewer fish to feed an ever increasing number of mouths.

A working couple on £120k, being productive and doing the right things, aren’t the ones to sneer at. I save my contempt for the people who hand out sympathy and cheques just to keep people stuck where they are. That’s not support it's a noose.

Edited
Show quote history

Give a man a fish and he eats it. Give a man a fishing rod, and you never bloody see him again cos he will always be out fishing :-)

Nordic states have really high tax. They are famous for it. Helsinki is not a great Hen or Stag destination for a boozy weekend. . They high tax everything.

Random link here "

Highest Tax Paying Countries: Complete List for 2025 | Millionaire Migrant

Quote your bit here : " I save my contempt for the people who hand out sympathy and cheques just to keep people stuck where they are. "

So you seem to say Nordic states have the best system for getting folk off benefits and into work. To strive.

And you have contempt for the people who hand out cheques and sympathy.

Take a guess at what countries lead the world in the size of the Cheques they hand out. Yup, it's the Nordic countries. They have both the highest tax, and hand out the biggest cheques.

Another random link here, with info on that.

Social Safety Nets: Leading Countries Investing in Human Capital Building Economic Health (exaputra.com)

Data from the Nordic states strongly suggest high taxation, and a well funded social safety net does work.

Do you have contempt for the Nordic states ?

Highest Tax Paying Countries: Complete List for 2025

Highest Tax Paying Countries: Complete List for 2025 | Millionaire Migrant

Discover the highest tax paying countries in 2025. From Nordic nations to Western Europe, explore tax rates, income brackets, and strategies for tax optimization with Millionaire Migrant.

https://www.millionairemigrant.com/highest-tax-paying-countries/

toomuchfaff · 01/12/2025 13:41

Swiftie1878 · 29/11/2025 11:09

Tbh, the mansion ‘tax’ is so piddling in value, it’s really just a political statement - ‘Look! We’re taxing the rich!’

Absolute nonsense.

But it also means that the people who bought houses years ago, lived in them for years, now have to find income to stay in them or sell and move (far) away.

But those get no sympathy from the baying packs of wolves appearing on MN because obviously if a person or pensioner lives in a £2m house, even if they didnt buy a £2m house then they should sell it... (because only the real rich should have £2m houses, not the fake ones)

I fit into neither category

Original poster
NorthXNorthWest · 01/12/2025 13:26

DeftGoldHedgehog · 01/12/2025 05:16

Moan, moan, moan.

Hello, kettle! Is that you?

OP posts:
Original poster
NorthXNorthWest · 01/12/2025 10:45

Kleeneze · 01/12/2025 06:18

I’m someone that spends probably too much of their lives looking at tax policy. This is a terrible policy. Anyone with a house that is deemed just over £2m will fight the valuation tooth and nail. Our tax courts will be stuffed to the rafters with valuation disputes a. The fact that HMRC deems a property to be over £2m automatically devalues it by a couple of hundred thousand. I don’t think many will try to avoid it. You don’t see much stamp duty avoidance to do with messing with the valuation as doing so is very dodgy and could invalidate your ownership of your property.

But yes, a bad tax due to lazy implementation.

It’s a veritable can of worms: bank valuation for the mortgage, government valuation for tax, actual sale price in the market. Potentially three prices for one house. What could possibly go wrong?

OP posts:
Original poster
NorthXNorthWest · 01/12/2025 10:40

Swiftie1878 · 01/12/2025 07:39

It is actually possible to have sympathy for both.

Show quote history

This

OP posts:
Original poster
NorthXNorthWest · 01/12/2025 10:39

BitOutOfPractice · 01/12/2025 05:14

I’m not jealous or ignorant. I mean you have no idea of my financial circumstances to know if I need to be jealous do you? But I will save my sympathy for people struggling to feed their kids rather than people moaning that their preferred method of saving is now less tax efficient.

Show quote history

'Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day; teach a man to fish and you feed him for a lifetime'.

People struggling don’t need endless handouts to trap them there, they need short-term support and real routes into skills, work and productivity - similar to the Nordic states provision from what I understand of it. Saving drives growth, growth drives wages, and wages pay for benefits and the support that feeds kids. Attack saving and work and you don’t help the poor or starving children you just make the river have fewer fish to feed an ever increasing number of mouths.

A working couple on £120k, being productive and doing the right things, aren’t the ones to sneer at. I save my contempt for the people who hand out sympathy and cheques just to keep people stuck where they are. That’s not support it's a noose.

OP posts:
BitOutOfPractice · 01/12/2025 09:10

Swiftie1878 · 01/12/2025 07:39

It is actually possible to have sympathy for both.

Show quote history

I’m sure it is. Knock yourself out.

Swiftie1878 · 01/12/2025 07:39

BitOutOfPractice · 01/12/2025 05:14

I’m not jealous or ignorant. I mean you have no idea of my financial circumstances to know if I need to be jealous do you? But I will save my sympathy for people struggling to feed their kids rather than people moaning that their preferred method of saving is now less tax efficient.

Show quote history

It is actually possible to have sympathy for both.

Kleeneze · 01/12/2025 06:18

I’m someone that spends probably too much of their lives looking at tax policy. This is a terrible policy. Anyone with a house that is deemed just over £2m will fight the valuation tooth and nail. Our tax courts will be stuffed to the rafters with valuation disputes a. The fact that HMRC deems a property to be over £2m automatically devalues it by a couple of hundred thousand. I don’t think many will try to avoid it. You don’t see much stamp duty avoidance to do with messing with the valuation as doing so is very dodgy and could invalidate your ownership of your property.

But yes, a bad tax due to lazy implementation.

DeftGoldHedgehog · 01/12/2025 05:16

Moan, moan, moan.

BitOutOfPractice · 01/12/2025 05:14

NorthXNorthWest · 30/11/2025 23:46

It takes a special kind of person to be so wrapped up in jealousy and ignorance that they can’t even recognise the government screwing other people over. Mocking savers for being upset when the goalposts on ISAs get moved isn’t insight, it just advertises how little you know. If I was you I would give up the violin routine, you wouldn’t recognise a good tune even if it hit you in the face.

Show quote history

I’m not jealous or ignorant. I mean you have no idea of my financial circumstances to know if I need to be jealous do you? But I will save my sympathy for people struggling to feed their kids rather than people moaning that their preferred method of saving is now less tax efficient.

Original poster
NorthXNorthWest · 01/12/2025 00:25

Genevieva · 30/11/2025 09:33

It will work at all bands because the amount they are charged is going to be a percentage of the price the property is valued at.

Show quote history

This will happen. Look at where student loans started...

OP posts:
Original poster
NorthXNorthWest · 01/12/2025 00:24

ByQuaintAzureWasp · 30/11/2025 09:48

Its bloody ridiculous (im nowhere near or ever will have a £2m house).
Its for local services and should be per adult head count.

Edited

They learned their lesson from the Poll Tax which is why they started small this time. Who is going to kick up a fuss for the 'wealthy'...

OP posts:
Original poster
NorthXNorthWest · 01/12/2025 00:22

pencilcaseandcabbage · 30/11/2025 09:47

ISTR there was a mumsnetter on another thread (I didn't 'watch' it so can't link) who said their property transaction collapsed the day after the budget due to this tax.

Show quote history

Sadly, I suspect they were not the only ones. And so it begins...

OP posts:
Original poster
NorthXNorthWest · 01/12/2025 00:17

AgnesMcDoo · 30/11/2025 17:22

There are no principles of taxation and this is an issue (like private schools VAT) where most people won’t play their sympathy violins fornyou

I think you miss off a doo...

I’m not affected by the mansion tax. If you put down the violins and paused the knuckle-dragging for just a second, you might finally hear the point whistling past.

OP posts: