To think having kids is now treated like a moral achievement rather than a personal choice?

Many cults have replaced the church. But if children really had taken the place of God in the hearts of people we would be far more child centered than we are.

I'm also not sure what you believe the distinction between personal choice and moral achievement is, can you expand please

I freely admit that I was totally idiot before having children. I had a successful life - career, house, social life, “stuff”. However, I largely lived to work and didn’t have a clue what was actually important.

Having DD massively changed my perspective. I wouldn’t call it wisdom and I don’t espouse it to others. I still have a career, but it’s far lower down the pecking order. Likewise socialising - love it but if I miss out on something, ho hum.

Maybe I’d have reached these conclusions with age anyway, it’s perhaps just growing up (I was nearly 40 when she was born).

But I agree, motherhood doesn’t confer wisdom or moral superiority.

I'm child-free and I haven't experienced this in real life. I did deliberately build up a social circle of people who aren't judgmental twats though.

I would have definitely said this opinion was more commonplace in the past than now.

Not true

Some do, but many people put their own free life on hold, and get involved with communities, charities, a lot kids related volunteering- maybe their own kids can benefit to some extend, but it's usually the opposite of selfish.

Really? You only have to read the scores of posts on MN about people and their abusive mothers/parents. How wise, less selfish and more mature did those mothers become?
Infact, there was a thread a while ago and some of the stories that people shared that their parents did to them when they were children were absolutely horrifying.
People have innate characteristics.
In most cases, motherhood actually doesn’t change a persons inbuilt character all that much.

If you’re a selfish and immature person, having a baby won’t automatically change that. You’ll still be selfish and immature unless you recognise and address your character flaws and do some serious work on yourself.

Choosing to become a parent is a selfish act in itself. And generally speaking many people become more selfish when they become parents, their selfishness just expands to include their family unit.

It really, really doesn't

what culture?

I haven't noticed anything at all about "dads" but mothers culturally take a huge beating as if they suddenly lose their brain, thinking ability and credibility.

I'd welcome a change giving them wisdom and depth after popping a baby or 2

Is that in general or just when dealing with the kids?

Ha! I'm.not. im way more stressed than j used to be! 😆

This.i don't think people's personality changes that much. I certainly am the same person that I was before children

It’s not something I’ve noticed, but then I’m mostly far too busy counting my blessings that I don’t have children tbh. I’ll trade the moral high ground for my freedom and sanity any day!

This may be a perception difference.

I have kids - my perception is the overiding narrative towards parents and parehood even on parenting sites like this is negative - and anything less than "ideal" - number/age/set up or even if life circustances change for worse then you can get attacked.

I think childless people feel attacked for not having or even wanting kids sometime by people asking outright but once you have them people still find endless fault and ask very personal questions- but they don't see that.

Parenthood does usually come with new challenges - and development of different skills - as any major life change does but as PP have said parents are still people who come in a wide range of flavours - selfish/insightfull and opposite.

I'n clearly going to take parenting advice -or juggling wider life with parenthood from actual parents - usually ones who have more relavant experience than I do. Someone who has or recently had teens is going to have more insight than someone with a new born baby to someone with teens- unless there was some additional experience like being a secondary teacher etc.

Our socities are set up for people to have kids and pay tax for society dependents both kids and old people - world wide fertlity rates are going rapidly down - doesn't suggest parenthood is seen more desireable state.

Not engaging if this is just a random goady thread so please can you give some context for this view.

I don't quite see it the same as you, but people suggesting they had children for the good of society (rather than because they wanted to) is v annoying.

Surely having children IS a lifestyle choice?

I think that’s perfectly fair.

Maybe. If so, they’ve slimmed down from their previously three-word usernames.

Having kids is a lifestyle choice though, same as the number of kids anyone choose to have is a lifestyle choice. It's not an inevitability. What makes you object to that?

You certainly get a different perspective, the same with all life experiences (though possibly towards the more extreme end of life experiences like living in a different culture or bereavement etc.).

Parenthood doesn't make people better (or worse), though.

Selfish/entitled people don't suddenly become nice - they just extend their selfishness and entitlement to include their kids, as extensions of them (or become abusive parents depending on the make of their arseholery!).

Looking after and prioritising your own children should be the basic standard and not any kind of moral achievement.

If you go deeper, it could be argued that doing good things for your own children is solipsistic or narcissistic, but I get told I'm bringing the the mood down and get asked to leave when I start discussing this at mum&baby sessions! 😂

This is another one of those provocative/confrontational threads started by a poster with a bird in their username. Is it AI?

Always AIBU.....to think. Always bilge.

The OP will put up the original provocative post, then, will come back with increasingly word soupy replies stirring the pot.

I can identify them now before I even open them.

So are you saying that those without children are selfish and immature?

I have certainly not found it to be the case. I’m pretty much the same as I was when I was contentedly childfree. I’m delighted I had DS, who has been a lovely addition to my life, but motherhood hasn’t turned me into a different person.

I don't know anyone either with or without kids who shares this view, so no, not in my experience.