Does anyone else find recent graduates very lacking in grammar and spelling skills?

No, we don’t. The students are told (again this is central rather than department policy) that they can use AI for coursework but it must be declared. However, this is total nonsense because nobody is going to declare that they asked Chat GPT to write the entire essay and then just edited it to make it sound a bit more original. The only thing we have is Turnitin, which checks for plagiarism but wouldn’t catch AI-written assignments. We rely on staff getting a “sense” that it might have been AI generated but we have been told that we have no way of proving it, so pointless to pursue. The one way we do have of catching people out is that ChatGPT “hallucinates” references, ie cites fake sources. Then we can challenge the students on that. However, the ones with an ounce of intelligence will go through and check that the references are correct and we don’t have time to check every reference in any event so many slip through the net.

There is considerable skill involved in being able to pick out relevant information and put it together in an essay and structure it appropriately so that it is informative and persuasive. Using chat GPT, even if you only use it for a “basic” structure that you then edit, totally removes that and that’s how you end up with people who can’t even structure a basic email. You see people on here saying they use ChatGPT for everything, including just writing messages to friends. It always sounds so contrived as well. I do believe it’s causing a serious dumbing down of the population.

I did a part time law conversion degree when I was in my late 30s and did the LPC (solicitor qualification)in my early 40s. I had already worked for 10 years in professional roles at that point as had most of my part time cohort so it was somewhat baffling when we had to do several hours at law school every week on ‘business writing’. We were covering the absolute basics of how to write concisely with good grammar and structure etc.
Our tutors told us that law firms were complaining about the quality of recent graduate hires’ writing skills so had pushed for it to be a mandatory part of the qualification.

No legal skills were taught. Instead we learned not to start client emails with ‘Hey’, and sign off with ‘Cheers’. How to construct a sentence and what paragraphs meant. When to use their, they’re and there. How to use the active over the passive voice and not to split infinitives.
It was utter madness but given I now hire said grads I can see why it was needed. No ability to write concisely and clearly. No order. Meandering sentences with superfluous words that don’t make a point. No clear sentence or wooly paragraph structure. My standard feedback is “what does this sentence mean”. “What point we are trying to make here”.
Rather than taking that feedback and changing the sentence to make sense to the reader they just respond to the comment with “… it means [x]”. I say “can you rewrite the sentence to make that clear” and they call up to say “I don’t know what you want me to do”. I explain and they write my exact words.
If I don’t have the time for coaching on basic writing skills I rewrite and ask them to read it to compare and contrast. I’ve had feedback like ‘oh yeah it’s just a different style they said the same thing.’
No, mine made sense to the audience, yours didn’t!

A lot of the Gove educational reforms were daft but the one I did wholeheartedly agree with was a SPAG test for trainee teachers. You can’t possibly teach kids SPAG if your own isn’t up to a good standard.

I think the main issues are these:

• A lack of teacher marking in secondary school (I’m reading through DD’s books and spotting the regular spag mistakes then getting her to make a list)
• Reading not competing with phones, and the accepted pedagogical wisdom on reading not catching up. There’s a belief you should not ‘force’ reading but I don’t think it’s a fair fight between a book and an iPad. Both my kids have half an hour of reading built into bedtime and it’s usually the only reading they do. But they are at least reading half an hour a day and they do enjoy it because once the reading starts, the book takes over
• Autocorrect means they never take the stabilisers off. All you have to do is have a bash at a word and your computer will do the rest. It will correct your/you’re or there/their/they’re

It’s not his job. It’s his qualification.

@Glowingup do you use AI detectors? My family in teaching punish AI use in 6th form.

It’s the usual spite and nastiness for nastiness’s sake.

I teach undergrads at university in a well respected subject (law) at a very highly regarded institution. There is no physical space for exams so all assessments are coursework or take-home exams. AI use is rife. I suspect there are some student who have not written a single of their assignments - ChatGPT has. So this post doesn’t surprise me and I feel similar levels of frustration. Unfortunately, we are dictated to by senior management and if we wanted to push them to be more independent and take on challenges, we aren’t allowed to. Management are particularly frightened of a tragic case a few years ago at Bristol, where a student sadly took her own life after being asked to do a presentation. The university was blamed for this by the parents and in the press so we have to be very very careful. That has resulted in enormous ability to cheat using AI and very few ways to check that students are actually learning the stuff we want them to.

I wouldn't say that my English is better than my native language. If you're an avid reader you tend to get things right without necessarily knowing all the grammatic rules.

I was an avid reader & read whatever I got my hands on. Even if I didn’t truly understand a word I knew how to use it & how to spell it. My dc don’t read the same way which disappoints me but there are so many more distractions now.

Apparently you can clear the phone dictionary cache, keep meaning to have a look. Mine is hellbent on adding a comma to its whether it needs it or not.

I agree totally. But for me it’s the really basic stuff ‘their / thier’. I do accept that sometimes placing a comma in the right place is difficult (get it wrong myself), but basic attention to detail is really irritating. Even things like making sure the fonts are all the same.
Winds me up a treat…..

No, there aren’t

My kindle does this as well.

Yes, but they were saying the same when I graduated 25 years ago so … 🤷‍♀️

I'm not a native English speaker (school started teaching English year 4) and I've noticed with astonishment that some people born and raised in the UK make mistakes that are very.. basic. Like confusion btw bought-brought, lose-loose, his-he's, your-you're, ect instead of etc.. and that's just common mn errors:).

I wouldn't say that my English is better than my native language. If you're an avid reader you tend to get things right without necessarily knowing all the grammatic rules. I couldn't explain the grammar of my native language but I get it right organically. Whereas I could explain French grammar (so complicated) and still make errors.

@FollowingAzureSeas my iphone has recently started autocorrecting my posts with random words & often suggests incorrect spellings for words. Sometimes I reread a post I have made & I think wtf have I just posted!

100% this!

I recently heard a newly qualified teacher 'brag' about not being able to tell the time!
We also had a student teacher in the English dept. who claimed she had never read a book!

My husband is a Chartered Engineer and a partner in his firm, and I think he would very much agree with you @MiddleAgedDread!! 🤣🤣🤣
Engineers, especially consulting ones, often need to be able to write technical reports. He spends a lot of his time tearing his hair out at junior engineers who cannot write accurate and succinct reports, and who also seemingly have no eye for detail. Excellent. 😵‍💫🫣🤣

God, seriously? That’s dreadful.

I think there's a difference between styles evolving and a total lack of basic grasp of spelling and simple punctuation. I can forgive "higher level" errors of spliced commas or whatever but capitals, full stops, and the correct your, there, lose and loose really shouldn't be beyond anyone without learning issues. And for the millionth time, that IS taught in schools at every level but opportunities to correct errors and repeat the work - writing out the word or sentence three times, that's gone. There simply isn't time and unless it's reinforced or practised at home, it doesn't always sink in.

I find standards of written English to be woefully inadequate.

So true

I remember being taught how to write formal letters at primary school.
Dear Sir/Madam - sign off was yours faithfully
Dear name - sign off was yours sincerely

It is many years since I have seen either of those on any letter.

I think it’s quite possible for people to get through school and uni without learning the basics. Parents aren’t teaching their kids these skills either.
Have you considered creating some templates/guidelines with examples so that the new hires learn what is and isn’t appropriate?
I still remember having a new grad start and they didn’t know what forwarding an email was. Their job was mainly admin tasks.

I think written standards change over time (look at how formal professional letters were a 100 or 200 years ago compared to now!).

My kindle has the worst autocorrect of any device I have used. I have switched spellchecker off but it still replaces what I have written with random words. It has a mind of its own.

TBH I didn't spot any glaring grammar mistakes in the OP's first post until someone pointed them out to me, but I still don't think they were a crime against the English language compared to some of the posts I have seen on MN.