To say: Women, stop marrying down.

I firmly believe that no woman should move in with or marry a man she hasn’t witnessed living as an independent adult for at least a few years. Away from home, either in his own or a shared house, and fully able to do all his own chores, household management, sort his own social life, remember his own family birthdays…

I think people have different values and needs and different people bring different things to relationships.

I think this tends to manifest itself in a different way.

It's the women in my family who are largely useless, with the men doing most of the running around, the "shitwork", housework, as well as working full time jobs.

Invariably this is described along the lines of "devoted husband", "family man", or at worst the woman is thought of as being a bit of a princess or hard work, but I don't think it's ever couched in terms of the man having "married down".

There are two individuals I'm thinking of in particular who are just straightforward unpleasant people. They completely domineer their husbands, but their behaviours aren't reserved solely for their spouses, they are "difficult" with everyone. I pity the men for having to put up with it, but the reality is they chose to get involved and chose to stay despite it, so that pity is also limited.

So yes, I agree with some of what OP is getting at, in that if more people had a bit more self-respect they wouldn't permit their partners to trample all over them and take the piss, but that goes both ways.

👏

I did it.
In my case it was poor role models though, and I didn't realise I was marrying down until it was too late. I thought it was normal.
I did leave though, and my life became much better and happier afterwards.

Not really. Not when it saddles offspring with a shitshow of a life and a useless “father.”

Why are you cross with me? The disapproval came from her parents, not me and the couple are happy.

TBH unless yourself or your DH, not as in the poster above, but in general are capable of fixing a boiler/leaking tap or whatever needs fixing/building it's those very trades people they call on to do the job for them.

I think the crux is that the vast majority of women want to have a baby. They don’t really want to be a single mother, therefore they need a man.
Now the majority of men don’t make great husbands and fathers they really don’t. In most relationships where a woman wants a baby something has to give. That might be that he doesn’t do at least 50% of the childcare or at least 50% of the housework, or he didn’t match his iartner in terms of attractiveness and grooming. Lots and lots of ways in which the woman can be termed ‘better.’
What can a woman do if she wants a baby? Will Mr. Right come along in time? Will he be perfect for her? Before her biological clock runs out. Before he fathers a child with another woman and then becomes much less than perfect.
I’m still shocked at the number of women having children with men who are already fathers. Who have already failed at being fathers. Never mind women settling for men who haven’t shown they will be terrible fathers.
Yet women are criticised for having too high standards. Expecting a partner to meet their level of intelligence, compassion, ambition, pride, cleanliness, attractiveness, thoughtfulness. I actually believe that you should marry someone very similar to yourself. I don’t believe that opposites last, too much friction.

Better that than hooking up with and producing children by a sub-par loser.

Think it’s true, not the ambition and money bit. The unable to adult or just generally lazy disrespectful fuckers. I do have to say looking at all the men in my family (including the ones who married in) you kinda knew which ones would be decent husbands and dads without having a deep understanding of their psychology.

So yeah it’s not your fault if he’s an arse but it is your fault if you knew it and married him anyway and then expected him to change. I don’t change unless I realllly have to, so I don’t expect it from anyone else either.

It was not a judgement I made.

Totally agree with this.

They always say “he changed” but i bet their friends and family members would tell a different story.

Have high standards.

"less ambition, less emotional intelligence, less income or less stability" - realistically it's going to be difficult to find a man who doesn't fall into at least one of those four categories. Different people have different strengths and weaknesses and that's fine!

(I suspect in particular ambition and emotional intelligence are negatively correlated.)

Successful relationships are about making the most of your different complementary qualities, not joining together two clones.

Also to be consistent you'd also have to rule out a man who has more ambition/emotional intelligence/income/stability , because if he's willing to accept the imbalance you clearly share different values, so basically you're stuck with the tiny number of people who are exactly the same as you in all these respects.

My friends dad started off as a builder, made his millions in commercial property and died suddenly not knowing whether or not he had been granted a peerage to the house of lords.

Oh! A trade isn’t marrying down is it? Some of the most financially comfortable people I know are tradespeople. I thought we were talking attitude not occupation.

It was not a judgement I made.

100% - and as a mother of sons, I'm trying (even the little stuff - like expecting them to manage to get birthday and Christmas presents for each other and me without being repeatedly reminded)

I intend to send mine out into the world able to basically manage a house, wash their clothes (and themselves), cook, pull their weight, pay the bills, and not be a jerk. I hope it works.

Equating a "man in trade" with having "less ambition, less emotional intelligence, less income, less stability" is kind of offensive. The only thing in that list directly affected by a man's job is income, and even that depends on how good he is at the job. Excellent tradespeople can more or less name their price these days.

Men set the level in a hetero relationship. They will drag you down or lift you up.
I don’t know why? Probably because men are socialised to prioritise their own needs and women adapt to the men around them for safety and because we’ve been socialised to do so….
Either way, pick a man who will bring you UP to where he is, not drag you down.

Isn't blaming women for men's failings literally the definition of 18th century values? Good old-fashioned misognyistic ones, anyway.

I feel like there might be some rage-baiting going on with the OP, but I do agree. It's why I am single.

I think the 18th century called and wants its expectations back.

I could have married "up" for money, but I preferred good conversation, shared values and mutual respect.

The issue is that men are not stepping up as husbands and fathers. Perhaps we should blame their mothers for not teaching them better manners. Whonelse is to blame for the feckless dead weights we all encounter?

Instead of saying Women, stop marrying down, perhaps we should be saying, Mothers, mother your sons properly.

@JamieCannister

Surely that depends on whether they are a well-mannered, intelligent gas engineer with a couple of staff and a £100k yearly profit, or a rude, dirty bricklayer who earns £150 a day (when he can get work) because he's unreliable and lazy?

Nail on the head there. Not all tradesman are the same!!

Yanbu but unfortunetly so many of us grew up with low self esteem, got bullied off our parents, grew up watching our parents have toxic relationships ect. It really trickles down

We had nice holidays, a nice life, nice clothes a big house ect. But we were surrounded by toxic adults.

I think it's all well and good saying what we need to do, what we should accept ect. But really it starts at home doesn't it and it starts with what we believe we deserve. I had children with an abusive violent man ( i left when they were 8 months old and 2.6 ) and if I had the self love then that I have now, my children would of had a decent father. Instead hes not been allowed by law to see them since 2017.

But nobody taught me how to love myself or accept better for myself. I've had to really learn the hard way and I'm not even sure I have learned as I've just stayed single for 8 years instead.

What we all need to do is make sure our kids grow up with enough self worth and self love that they don't seek it in the wrong people and for us to teach them what an equal relationship is. And for me personally I am raising my son to know how to use the washing machine hoover and how to cook ect