Fiancé asking for a prenup

Just to add, I wouldn't want to marry or have children with someone who wasn't really keen to be a father. Laying down conditions for marriage is one thing but a real desire to be a father and embark on family life is what it is all about.

But do you put in equally? Are your salaries equal or does he earn more out of his business?

What will happen when you're on Mat leave? How soon will he expect you to return to work? Will you still have to pay equally into the pot? Who will fund childcare?

Pension provision?

Is your spending money equal?

Have you discussed the above?

Who owns your home?

This thread is really kicking off so you'll have a lot of opinions to sift through @Aquea

Like i said upthread....

Its very easy for people to say "Bin him!" and then they kiss their Dh goodbye and drop the kids wherever and go about their day.
It's your LIFE.

I would see a counsellor/ get external advice as you sound conflicted / at a crossroads. I also think you have maybe overly "romanric notions" its easy to not give a shit if you are poor / have no assets / your family money is locked in a trust.

I know people with prenups who are happily married. It happens.

im guessing here but... You want kids within a marriage (fair), he probably wants a slower timeline but is moving up his timeline to accomodate your biological reality (thats also kinda fair).

IF... you DO want children and you are 30-35 and you dont want to go via sperm donor and parent alone - very honestly your window is closing.

I work in contracting - "the contract" is the fail safe for both parties and negotiating and agreeing it can be hard / difficult and testing. Once in place, the "relationship" come back into play and the contract is very very infrequently called upon.

Uk courts frown upon highly disparate prenups and can disregard them. Fair provision midt be made for you in it. He wont be able.to say "i keep all my stuff".

your "Best alternative to a negotiated agreement" (BATNA) is possibly leaving and finding a new partner but I think you should only even consider that after "negotiating best possible terms"

Unpopular opinion(?)
Even if you cant get the prenup terms you want (assuming he's a broadly.decent man and genetically fit) if you are over 30 and want kids... i think if you get your kids and are able to raise them in a secure partnership for at least first 2 years of all childrens lives (i find this period the hardest) is prob worth it anyway....
🤷🏻‍♀️

I think it's entirely sensible to want to be married before having children. As I see it this isn't just about legal protections for the wife - it's about a man wanting to commit to being a father. What are his views and expectations around fatherhood? That includes things like supporting you whilst on maternity leave, paying towards childcare. You also need to consider if you may decide you want to work part time after children. Most childless people have no idea what life is like once those children are in your life - it is a huge life change - time before children and time after. Many new mothers find they fall in love with their baby and hate the thought of returning to work and leaving their baby with carers. There is good reason to have many concerns about nurseries and the quality of staff they employ (plenty of dreadful cases in the news). Working full time with small children is exhausting (I never did it for this reason), getting up early to rush to nursery for drop off, rush to work, rush back to nursery for scheduled pick up time, then a full shift at home of bedtime routine, supper, housework. All on top of a night of broken sleep.

Equally he has a business and is responsible for the employment of 35 people. They, as well as him, deserve protection.

I should go along with seeing that solicitor, it's probably a good idea for you both to see someone to really talk through how you see married life and parenthood panning out. I'm sure I've heard of pre-marriage counselling, not sure where you find such a person, but it would be a good idea to have joint discussions around this.

Once you are both happy then you can let go of the worries and let romance and wedding planning take over.

I used to be against prenups, but now I'm older and seen some very unexpected, nasty and expensive divorces I'm not against them (although not sure how enforceable they are).

If he'd been desperate to marry you would you still be upset about the prenup? I do feel from reading this that he didn't really want to get engaged at all, and that could be the real problem. Are you OK with a practical marriage (nothing wrong with it if you are), or need to know your spouse couldn't wait to marry you?

I was engaged to someone I had to beg to propose. The whole situation made me very depressed and damaged my confidence a lot. I always felt like he wasn't sure I was good enough. It affected the power dynamics of the relationship a lot too, because I was always going along with what he wanted and trying to earn his proposal by being a perfect girlfriend. I loved him so much, but it wasn't a healthy dynamic at all in hindsight. I'd encourage you to think carefully about what you want, and whether the prenup is a sign of other issues that need addressing.

In the UK they're not worth the paper they're written on. He can insist, and you can sign it, but the reality is that once kids come along and you've been married for a few years, the prenup is effectively worthless.

I don't think your fiancé is being unreasonable. He's built up a business, and doesn't want to lose half of it, should you divorce. You want financial protection for yourself and children through marriage, he wants to make sure his business is protected through divorce. None of it is particularly romantic and lovey-dovey. Your partner wants children, and knows in order to have children, he needs to marry you. It appears to me that he's being pushed into marriage, rather than because he actually wants too. That would worry me, because it's not a great basis for marriage, if one party feels obligated, rather than because they genuinely want too.

You have completely left out and bypassed the risks to the women, and it really is becoming old and boring.

It’s well researched that women take a hit on both their careers and pensions, not to mention the toll on their bodies and emotional landscape having babies. Some never recover and have permanent injuries, others struggle with poorly babies. It’s not always a case of skipping back to full time work. Who does everything else? The childcare, housework etc.

Time and again we see men just walking away from their responsibilities and children, at best paying the absolute bare minimum CM and leaving it all to the mothers to raise the children single handed.

It’s an even bleaker picture with children and babies with disabilities, illness and special needs.

Why on earth would any woman sign up to this without even having as a bare minimum her children’s housing and needs covered should it all go wrong?

It’s utter madness. Unless she is on a rock star salary with help to match there is no way any woman should agree to such arrangements, they also scupper any chance of true security and love.

Those that are unmarried are in a worse situation, and this should be avoided at all costs. The risks are substantial even if you are very well paid, it only takes one child to be born disabled or become so through an accident and you are screwed. The social care in this country is on its knees.

The courts can decide on a different financial settlement and a prenup is not directly enforceable. However, since Radmacher vs Granatino, the courts will follow the provisions of a prenup that meets the criteria unless it is manifestly unfair in the current circumstances, e.g. there are children of the marriage and the prenup fails to make any provision for them.

Re OP's situation, I am with those posters who point out that she wanted the legal protection of being married but is now upset that he wants the legal protection of a prenup. For someone in his position (owner of a successful small business), a prenup makes sense, just as being married before having children makes sense for OP.

I agree with you OP, it's not ideal. Having said that, I'd be looking at the bigger picture. Is he kind, loving, empathic in other ways or is this just an indication of how transactional he sees the relationship? Is this part of a pattern or not? If you'll be working full time, will he take on 50% of the childcare, housework and mental load (even if he earns more)?

Having been with self employed men (and have friends in a similar boat), in my experience, they end up working a lot and it all becomes a bit non-negotiable ("it's for my business, I have to work late/weekends... etc") that the mum ends up having to work around, spend weekends alone, never get time for themselves etc. I would worry you may end up doing 95% of the childcare/house stuff around his business needs for a business that is always only ever "his". Maybe he has all that sorted and has a good work/life balance but it's worth checking. What would happen if his business really took off and he had to work crazy hours?

Also, don't underestimate the push to be a SAHM or go PT. DC with SEN, illnesses from nursery, struggling to leave your DC (it's so hard at first) can all push you towards a decision you don't imagine making prior to having children. Will he pay (towards or for depending on your relative incomes) a nanny for example which should make things easier. Or take care of some nursery drop offs and collections?

The prenup is to protect his business but what about other security for you and DC? What will be left to split after the business is excluded? I'd be looking at what finance you'd need if you split and had DC eg is there enough for you to have a house outright in your current area? You could also get written in what would happen if you ended up having to be a SAHM or go PT (eg you had a disabled child, you became disabled etc). He's being fairly cold hearted and thinking with his head on this and you need to as well.

Generally I'd take some time to think through the above and then decide whether you actually want to be with him or if this cool head is part of a pattern of selfishness.

Don't ignore your feelings!

I would have the meeting and walk into it with your eyes wide open. A good solicitor will objectively ask fair and relevant questions you haven't considered

His reaction to what would be considered a reasonable and amicable divorce conditions, whether he expects you to become a SAHM, what he considers [and you] reasonable child maintenance and custody, how you will provide for each other towards retirement if your respective financial situations or health changes. That will tell you whether or not this is a relationship worth having.

I would get a shit hot solicitor.

If you still want to marry him.

You have to negotiate division of assets you build together, what if the majority of childcare falls on you, sick days, picking up from school, whilst he is happily building up his untouchable business?

Do you both want children?

He should keep what he builds up perhaps before children but what afterwards?

He's right you should get a shit hot lawyer.

It's very different if you start a marriage on equal footing, want the same things, build up everything together, and you know you need to get married for protection, he also knows he could lose more than is sustainable or even worth it for him.

If you have children they need protecting. You need to know that if you do divorce, because this is what this is all about, that it won't just be the basic child maintenance, that he will fund their schooling, and they will be entitled to assets you both build up.

This is sensible, practical, everyone knows where they stand financially, and hopefully you can come out with a legally bound document that is fair and protects you both and any subsequent children.

And if you aren't happy with anything you can walk away, as can he. I am not sure he is fully taking into account the full extent of what you can include in this document but he will find out in time.

Isn't it better if you do get married, that you aren't thinking, he might screw me over here and he isn't thinking, fuck I might lose my business on your wedding day?

Sounds like a cake and eat it situation, really. You want all the legal protections marriage offers, etc., but are not willing to extend them to him on a business he's built, and if he employs 35 people, that's no small operation, yes, it's a small company compared to Tesco but if he's built this from the ground up, I can see why he wants some protection.

Like most of these types of questions, as long as you both have legal advice, there should be no issues, as you'll ask for a sunset clause to be drafted into the contract.

Feels like such a double standard.

You want marriage to protect yourself in case you split up.

He wants a pre nup to protect his assets in case you split up.

You are outraged because it’s not romantic and you feel HE has an obligation to support you if you have children. (Failing to understand here why you wouldn’t be able to work etc)

A coerced engagement isn’t very romantic either.

I’m of thr share everything school of thought once married. What happens if you have children and it affects your earning power (due to yours or the children’s health)? Or you want to go part time to spend more time with any children. That will have a knock on effect for your earnings and pension. Is he going to have you begging for money and insist on a fifty fifty split of money and assets at all times?
it all sounds too transactional and the last post when it sounds as if he might try to choose a solicitor for you would have me running for the hills!
Please trust your gut feeling with this one. I haven’t sensed any good old fashioned love and romance! I’d put him back and move on.
At the the very least find out if you say no to a pre-nup there would be no marriage?

I'm with you op. It would leave a bitter taste. I would feel that there was no trust there and that everything he does work-wise is for his own benefit and not for building a life with a family. It's shown you an aspect of him. Don't ignore it. It might be fine or it might be that he's not the right person for you.

Why don’t you just get one? You want marriage to protect you in the event of a split and so does he. Why don’t you get one that completely ring fences his business in the event of a split but everything else is 50/50 down the middle. Unless you want to take the business too?

It feels like you have pushed the marriage thing for your security but he isn’t allowed a contract to protect him??

Then he doesn’t get to have a wife or children, and most likely a partner unless he can find one happy to be childless. So no children for him. You don’t dump all of the risks on a pregnant woman.

Despite many cogent arguments on here for your fiancé's position, personally I see marriage as a commitment first and foremost that is about love and this is especially true when you are young but then I wouldn't be with someone that values possessions/assets more than the love aspect.

You want to get married to protect yourself. Your fiancé wants the same with a prenup. Yet its coming across as if you are reasonable and he isn't. You can't have it all your way.

Do you have any idea what is even in it yet? You say he wants to protect his business, is that all? Or will it cover other things?

Get legal advise, make sure it has a provision for children and what might happen if you are a stay at home parent etc.

I think you have bigger issues than simply not agreeing on the prenup.

Not romantic but sensible. A good marriage has much in common with a good business partnership so I would try and think clearly and not let blind emotion be influencing your thinking OP.
If either of my kids had significant assets I’d be encouraging them to do the same.

I’ve voted YABU because two years really isn’t that long to know someone, and it’s not unreasonable for him to want to protect his assets just as you would like the protection of marriage. I would be irritated by the fact that he only seemed to be prepared to get married because you wouldn't have children without it. But if you both really love each other this should not be a deal breaker.

The real test is this: is he willing to put in writing that if you separate/ divorce he will make sure you and the children have a reasonable home, and that he will cover a reasonable share of the costs of raising them right through to university or apprenticeships, not just the tiny amounts the CSA chases. Divorce does not give him a free pass to leave you carrying both the emotional and financial load. You also need something in the prenup about maternity leave. You do not need unlimited access to his money, but you do need reasonable access to joint funds without having to ask permission for every small thing. The same applies if you both agree it makes sense for you to stay at home for a couple of years when the children are young.

It is also worth thinking about long term security for you. That could be buying into the mortgage over time so you build some equity, or keeping a rental property or a savings pot as your own escape fund so you are not left trapped if things ever change. A fair prenup should make sure both of you have a route to financial independence if the relationship ends.

What counts as reasonable will vary, and it is probably worth a separate thread. so you can ask advice from people who have been in this position. The aim is not to take advantage of him, it is simply to make sure you are not left vulnerable. He is right to want to protect what he has, but pregnancy and child rearing have a real impact on women in terms of career choices, earning potential, pension contributions and long term financial security. A good prenup recognises that and shares those risks fairly.

It isn't romantic and it is work but insurance policies never are. They are to ensure the heart doesn't screw over the head.

Op, the more i read your updates, the more I wonder why you are pushing for this marriage?

I see both sides though I may see one side more than the other but one thing my aunt said when she was talking to my cousin when I was very young (time & life have proven her words to be true) is 'It shouldn't be this hard'.