To have completely misunderstood the meaning of some sayings?

Is ‘trimming the Christmas tree’ a regional thing? I’ve never heard that one myself (south east) or the verb ‘to trim’ as ‘to decorate’ more generally. Except now you mention it, the one phrase ‘Christmas/roast dinner with all the trimmings’.

Really bugs me when people say "carrot and stick" to mean you can use a carrot OR a stick

Never heard it used that way!

Only to mean an inducement.

• First literary appearance: The first recorded instance of the phrase appeared in the 1849 narrative Dead Sea Expedition by Edward P. Montague. The book describes a donkey race where one donkey is motivated by a carrot on a stick, while another is being beaten with a stick.

I thought it was either you use a stick to hit the donkey - punishment or you use a carrot offer future inducements/rewards.

You could offer both punishment and rewards but first example of it being used is just saying either punishment or future rewards was being used to motivate the donkey.

Once again I find I have got the wrong end of the stick (ahem) with a proverb.

We did as well but I think I remember the decorations also being called the trimmings!

The stick was never supposed to be used to hit the donkey ... so it was never the mean option. Its just holding the carrot out in front of him. Its like offering a kid a sweet if they tidy up. The alternative is not punishment, just no sweet

Spose. But it still works better I think. If it was Catch 18 it would simply be describing the rule itself. Whereas Catch 22 is better at encapsulated that it is a puzzle with no better weight on one side than the other. And each side of the argument reflects the other. Back and forth. 22. 18 doesn't do that.

Anyway he's dead now. So we can't check.

We'd trim the tree and have a Christmas dinner with all the trimmings 😕

So two of tbe same numbers shows the circular nature of the argument.

@Leavesfalling - that appears to be your gloss on it, but reading up I can't see any evidence that Heller or his publishers were thinking that deeply about the choice of 22.

Maybe.

But it seems that 22 was chosen merely because another novel with 18 in the title had recently been released.

But carrot or stick is more helpful to describe that sort of situation which I thought it meant? Ie you can get someone to do something either by being nice or mean.

No because I’ve looked that up before but it’s a good mnemonic!

Really bugs me when people say "carrot and stick" to mean you can use a carrot OR a stick. Its wrong. The carrot was on the end of the stick to keep the donkey moving but he never actually gets it... he's reaching for it. So its carrot and stick, an inducement, not carrot OR stick.

It's one that caused confusion between DH and I recently. Apparently is becoming unusable/changing it's meaning.

DH handed over a an phone to be repaired and said the man looked nonplussed - which to me sounded bad but he didn't have that intonation.

Nonplussed to me means surprised and confused.

In US youtubers especially it seems to mean non bothered unperturbed - the complete opposite and he seems to have picked up that version. We looked it up as he insisted I was wrong .

Because it had no solution. So two of tbe same numbers shows the circular nature of the argument.

Its like that Plato thing (someone correct me). X is a liar. X says they are a liar. So X must be lying. In which case X tells the truth. An onward. Plato should have called that Lie 22 maybe. For catchyness.

@RafaFan 22 wasn't significant other than he liked it. They were caught and unable to get out of the situation, hence the 'catch'

Yes but 22 is better and works in the context of the book dont you think?

So it had to be two numbers the same that balanced each other as the problem goes back and forth

But originally he wanted to called it Catch 18.

I grew up in a house were a fusspot was a pet wanting loads of attention/fuss or someone worrying excessively.

Apparently it means someone always unhappy - always finding fault who enjoys creating drama.

So supposed it fits my cats.

Interesting one I had after shopping - growing up we show what we bought and get asked if we were all spent out ie all your cash/money had gone. IL area - different part of midlands it's have up spent up ie up to your credit limit - they also inist their versions is correct.

It reflects the insoluble problem in the book. So it had to be two numbers the same that balanced each other as the problem goes back and forth like bouncing off a mirror. If you see what I mean. And the "catch" is the rule that you have no way of getting out of.

From recollection as its a long time since I read it, the catch is if you say you are insane you must be sane. So a pilot can use the rule that he doesn't have to fly if he's insane but if he says he's insane he must be sane to know that, so he has to fly. No solution to that. A Catch 22 situation.

My mother had a big falling out with a shop because she thought opaque meant semi-transparent/ not quite see through. This meant she ordered the wrong plastic chairs. English is her third language to be fair!

Did any one else used to put up the trimmings at Christmas?

It was just a number that the author chose arbitrarily - it just sounded right - to evoke some bureaucratic set of rules: Wikipedia explanation

Oh, I see. I realise now the second meaning of trim is to decorate.

it’s not a word I would use in that context so took a minute to realise.

No. Trimming a tree is decorating it i.e. adding trimmings.