So who is going to be brave enough to ask whether Shabana Mahmood's proposed reforms are right/sensible/racist?

Just an afterthought. If people really struggle to express themselves on the subject of immigration without sounding racist, ChatGPT might be able to help. Try asking it to rewrite a post but make it sound less racist.

I don't think anyone actually thinks it's racist to express measured opinions about immigration policy. I also don't think anyone actually loses their job simply for expressing measured opinions about immigration policy. And if they did, they could claim for unfair dismissal - political beliefs are protected by law.

Of course, some people seem to be incapable of expressing concerns about immigration without also saying racist things that would put them in breach of their employer's policies or potentially bring their employer into disrepute etc. And if people do express racist views, then yes, they could well lose their jobs. And rightly so.

The solution is obviously to learn to say what you want to say about immigration without actually saying anything racist. I'm not sure why so many people seem to struggle with this. But if you engage with the detail of why people are calling you racist and actually try to understand, you might be able to reflect on how you're expressing your thoughts and learn to express them in a more neutral manner.

I do think it's really important to understand what free speech actually means, as a lot of people seem to believe that it means that people should be free to say whatever they like with no consequences. That isn't quite how it works. We absolutely do have free speech in this country, with certain limitations which are designed to protect the rights of others, e.g. you can't incite violence etc. What we don't have is the freedom to say whatever we like while demanding that our words should have no impact on how other people perceive us, or on how they choose to respond.

Can you not see that you are a, singling out Muslims for this crime and yet other faiths do and still have those attitudes in the UK? And b, you are lumping together all the muslims in the UK on some?

I don't have an issue as to what you write, things like forced marriage certainly does not align with British culture and has to be stopped, not driven underground, but it's the singling out of Muslims that is troublesome to me. Using a logical head, yes, there are Muslim men who disrespect women, just as there are those that don't. If it is about being a threat to women, that comes from men, many many different types of men too.

Whenever migration is voiced as a concern or the view that British culture is under threat and that that the nations values are under threat there is an immediate call by some these views are racist. if you work in the public sector or large corporation such an allegation is extremely worrying and and a real threat to your job even though that view is not racist (It is possible to have that view without being racist and that seems incomprehensible to some people). so yes you can’t say what you think for fear of your job. People feel under pressure and that is why debate has been stifled and people feel powerless as they can’t express what they feel.

@Happyjoe

Funny how you should say that these groups have moved with the times, and yet you have no such hope for British Muslims, instead expecting them to take over the UK completely in enough years?

Well I would have assumed the same for Muslims* but that doesn't seem to be what actually happens. As in the example I gave upthread where the man "marrying" the girl was actually born and raised in the UK. It's actually been observed and written about, that certain groups (not all individuals) remain in a sort of separate parallel culture.

*I've said Muslim but I think it's more cultural. Compare Pakistani Muslims to Malaysian Muslims for example.

ETA: It's not all Muslims living in the UK, either. But enough who don't assimilate to be a concern. And it concerns me that if it came to the crunch, the moderate Muslims might support them rather than us.

In what way is your free speech being curtailed, exactly? What sort of thing do you want to say that can't be said, and why are you unable to say it? Is someone actually stopping you from speaking up, and if so, how exactly are they doing this? Or is it more that you don't like it when other people use their free speech to criticise or disagree with what you've said?

How do you feel that your religion and culture has been put on a lesser footing, exactly? And which specific aspects of your culture have been eroded?

Funny how you should say that these groups have moved with the times, and yet you have no such hope for British Muslims, instead expecting them to take over the UK completely in enough years? Bearing in mind there are plenty of Muslims in the UK who already lead a law-abiding, respectful of the British way of life, life?

But no, arranged/forced marriages are still very much part of some groups, even in England. I remember the case of the Birmingham mother being found guilty of duping her 17 year old daughter into marrying a much older man while on holiday back home to Pakistan. Forced marriage, from the three faiths still happens in the UK, but while overseas to see family, and some underage.

This makes interesting reading. Sad though.
https://www.gov.uk/government/statistics/forced-marriage-unit-statistics-2022/forced-marriage-unit-statistics-2022#age-of-victims

The U.K. needs to do something to protect our culture which is steadily being eroded, the very fact that people feel they can’t voice opinions shows for fear of insults shows our free speech is under threat. We shouldn’t feel as a nation we have to make our religion and culture on a lesser footing than those cultures and faiths we have welcomed in. Integration is important and blending cultures is to be celebrated but where cultures won’t integrate but want to impose their values that is not harmony

Then we're talking at cross purposes. Because I specifically referred to cultures that don't respect women.
At no point did I divide the world into "UK culture" and "other cultures that btw don't respect women".

Arranged marriages, yes. I wasn't aware about the underage element though.

Also as mentioned, I had got the impression that Indian migrants (Hindus, Sikhs) assimilated more, and that India itself appears to move with the times to some degree (eg. fewer arranged marriages). As mentioned this could just be my impression as it's years since I've actually been there, and I'm basing stuff on my Indian friend and neighbours experiences/views.

I said not white British which includes all other white and non white heritage men and it was in response to comments about ‘ other cultures’ not respecting women.

Agreed. We need to be tackling it on all fronts. It's terrifying.

Interesting you have brought "non white" into it. I don't give a fig about the colour of someone's skin, I do care if they're from a culture where women are treated as lesser, and not allowed the same basic rights as men (or for that matter, individuals who ascibe to these beliefs). Those who accept we're equal, I have no problem with. Those that are an issue are those, such as I see in daily life in my own neighbourhood, who hold deeply sexist values.

I have literally specified I am talking about men from sexist cultures. It's you who's generalised that to skin colour. Weird.

I live in a multicultural area. I'm fully aware that there are non-white people who hold broadly the same values (not least those who are 2nd or 3rd generation and so thoughroughly British). Unfortunately it it these people who take undeserved flak when there is backlash against those who want to move here but don't want to share our values.

How much of the fear you feel is based on reality though? I understand you feel fear, but sometimes it's irrational. I don't feel fear from any religious group and yes, I have lived in areas with a high muslim population - Leeds and worked in Bradford.

Yes, limiting migration is fine, the UK is only a small country. It's the highlighting just one faith or skin colour that bothers me when some people say about immigration. Nearly nobody mentions that, for example, Albanian's came on boats in far larger numbers than Arab countries a few years ago, and Albanian's largely responsible for coke and other drugs, prostitution, slavery and real nasty crime in the UK... but they are white.

Mass migration fundamentally alters the character of a country, because the migrants will seek to recreate their ancestral homelands in the new host country. The implications for this are enormous, particularly if the immigrant culture shares little in common with the host culture.

It is conceivable that in immigrant culture could effectively “vote out” the host culture if demographics facilitate such a path.

I thought most male migrants already were young and single?

Otoh very good point re women and children. Maybe the expanded legal route could help?

What do you think should be done?

Something needs to be done, that's about all I feel sure about.

What concerns me is that the numbers are increasing, meaning at some point there will be a tipping point where the overall culture will change as it won't just be little isolated groups. This may not be within my lifetime, but I fear for my DC and their DC and all future generations if this is allowed to happen. It feels very frightening, as a woman, to realise I live in one of the few places and times where I have freedoms, and how fragile that is - one would hope it would spread across the globe and across time, but instead it risks being erased. Terrifying.

I also don't like the oppressive presence of Islam in my local neighbourhood. The visible reminders that you just don't get with other religions. If I move I'll no doubt be accused of "white flight" but I don't feel the same about other religions, as currently practised in the UK (if some US fundamentalists start to move here in droves I'll be protesting about them for the same reasons!)

That aside, there is the argument to limit migration based on population density - frankly that applies to all races and creeds.

I am older than you (probably) and arranged marriages mentioned were always from the South Asian communities years ago. It's been mentioned over the years in different ways, movies, plays, books.

There are certainly a lot of people native to this country who are barely literate.

Can we make white British people take an exam in the English language too

There's plenty and a growing number of men and young boys with the Andrew Tate's of the world viewpoints on women, who do think that women are lesser creatures and are there for their pleasure and to be controlled/owned.

And of course, the incels. It's extremism and it's growing. The threat to women is not a Muslim immigrant only thing, to be fair, it's a men thing.

No they don’t. Many many men from non white British backgrounds treat women with the greatest respect. I really think you are generalising here and that is dangerous.

Ah, that's interesting. I hadn't realised it was an issue, at least not in UK immigrant communities (different in country of origin). I'd always got the impression that Hindus and Sikhs assimilated to a larger degree to UK culture. (This just from my POV from growing up in an area with lots of Indians - now living in a different area that's more mixed.)

Does that not strike you as very strange if running from a war torn country? Not really enough time to spend a year at night class is it?
I doubt all Ukrainians could speak English. Would it not be more reasonable that they must learn English while here?