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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To wonder if UK lycees sometimes hinder the integration of French immigrant kids?

206 replies

Carla786 · 11/11/2025 18:53

I was reading Ben Judah's excellent book This Is London recently, about the relative integration of different immigrant groups in London. The focus was mainly on non-Western European immigrants, but there was some mention of the French immigrant population of Kensington.
I went to school there - my school was very near a lycee but I never thought much about it. I'm quite interested in France myself (my mum's a French teacher) and have several French friends (my school had a lot of European immigrants' children), I'm definitely not opposed to French people coming here. I'm just wondering if lycees are always helpful for integration. (Yes, I'm Gen Z- I know people will want to know why I'm on MN : I came for GC issues and stayed for the rest).

Generally we emphasise that it's important for immigrants to integrate with the existing population as much as possible. Lycees give French immigrants' children an education that follows the French curriculum, and I understand from what I've read are generally now composed of almost solely French children, though I understand the pupil cohort used to be more mixed in the past and maybe included more British children. If you grow up in a mainly French immigrant community and go to a lycee with mainly other French immigrant kids, how integrated will you be into the mainstream British population?
Generally when we talk about integration we focus on immigrant groups where sections are involved in crime or who mainly low-skilled. French immigrants are generally neither, so the lycee system isn't much remarked on. While I agree it's not a major concern, I still think it's worthy of comment.

We don't (I think) have lots of similar schools worldwide for the kids of Italian, German, Greek, Spanish, etc immigrants where they learn non-British curriculums. Yes, there are faith schools which sometimes overlap with ethnicity and have different curriculums (though I'd question that too- that topic's not for this thread, though).. I understand that lycees' educational standards are highly regarded & Brits or other immigrant nationalities sometimes send their kids there for that reason, esp since some run a parallel English curriculum(though as I said, the number of non-French pupils is much less now).

Still, I wonder how positive it is to have them if they're increasingly becoming nearly wholly French, and often used by families who are constantly on the move so that their kids can easily switch between lycees?

TLDR : AIBU to wonder if lycees may hinder integration of French immigrant kids if they now teach a French curriculum under the auspices of the French government to mainly French immigrant pupils who live generally in French immigrant-dominated areas? I'm definitely not saying they should be banned or anything, especially as UK state schools are generally bad at the moment..maybe there should be a push for a more mixed pupil cohort though?

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Carla786 · 12/11/2025 16:26

Eixample · 12/11/2025 16:22

Of course many European capitals have high levels of immigration.
Do you think that people should be able to choose their children’s school themselves, according to their own priorities, especially if they pay for it? That’s essentially what you’re asking.

Of course I believe parents should be able to choose their child's school according to their priorities.

One can believe something should be allowed, while at the same time be critical of aspects of it. I've never called for any school to be banned.

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GreyCloudsLooming · 12/11/2025 16:25

Carla786 · 12/11/2025 16:21

Definitely. Surely these parents are probably not intending to stay?

I was thinking a similar thing recently re Ultra-Orthodox Jewish schools (NB: If any anti-Semites are lurking, this is NOT an invite to bash all Jewish schools, most of which are not like this & often have a cohort of non-Jewish pupils). There's a great BBC series focused on faith, Heart and Soul, and the episode Off The Derech was about teenagers who had left the very strict Hasidic community (this isn't the same as Orthodox Jews, it's much more strict). They had mainly spoken Yiddish at home and at school and so hadn't been fluent in English until leaving. As I say, this is a tiny minority, but no UK school should be allowed to let pupils leave without ensuring they're fluent in English.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/p04n1x7p

Edited

The lycee not a UK school, though.

Eixample · 12/11/2025 16:22

Carla786 · 12/11/2025 15:36

You mean that other European capital cities have similar expat/immigrant numbers to the ones we have? Interesting...I will research

Of course many European capitals have high levels of immigration.
Do you think that people should be able to choose their children’s school themselves, according to their own priorities, especially if they pay for it? That’s essentially what you’re asking.

Carla786 · 12/11/2025 16:21

Ddakji · 12/11/2025 16:09

Surely they learn English at school?!!

That does seem very odd for British children.

Definitely. Surely these parents are probably not intending to stay?

I was thinking a similar thing recently re Ultra-Orthodox Jewish schools (NB: If any anti-Semites are lurking, this is NOT an invite to bash all Jewish schools, most of which are not like this & often have a cohort of non-Jewish pupils). There's a great BBC series focused on faith, Heart and Soul, and the episode Off The Derech was about teenagers who had left the very strict Hasidic community (this isn't the same as Orthodox Jews, it's much more strict). They had mainly spoken Yiddish at home and at school and so hadn't been fluent in English until leaving. As I say, this is a tiny minority, but no UK school should be allowed to let pupils leave without ensuring they're fluent in English.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/p04n1x7p

Heart and Soul - Off the Derech - BBC Sounds

The charity helping Orthodox Jews who want to break away from their faith

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/p04n1x7p

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GreyCloudsLooming · 12/11/2025 16:19

Ddakji · 12/11/2025 16:09

Surely they learn English at school?!!

That does seem very odd for British children.

English as a foreign language. Just like children in the UK might learn French at school. The children I knew at the lycee were completely bilingual, as were their parents.

Carla786 · 12/11/2025 16:14

Leakylady · 12/11/2025 15:38

@Carla786 Don't recall a single class on religions at LFCDG. Learned from my kids when they did RS in their British school!

Oh, that's surprising. Though I did see some threads on MN that said teaching style was more rote & focused on core subjects : also that extracurriculars weren't really a thing. Was that accurate for you?

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Ddakji · 12/11/2025 16:09

ickystickybubblegun · 12/11/2025 15:20

No.
DH is french and we have several friends whose children attend these schools. Everything at school is in French and everything in home is in French. As a result the children, who are born in the UK, speak very little English.

Surely they learn English at school?!!

That does seem very odd for British children.

Pharazon · 12/11/2025 15:45

Carla786 · 12/11/2025 15:33

Ah right, thank you. That's interesting & I can definitely see benefits.

Re the 'no teaching religion' rule, presumably this means preaching/instruction? As in, there were still RS lessons that dealt with religions neutrally & factually?

Absolutely not.

Carla786 · 12/11/2025 15:44

Bambamhoohoo · 12/11/2025 04:02

Different but related I remember a long form article I read years ago suggesting similar about the integration of the Chinese community.

it made me think about the multi generational family who own our local Chinese takeaway- they’ve been there over 30 years, with family members similar ages to myself, my siblings and children/ nieces. Yet none of them attended our local schools.

this is obviously quite a 80s/90s/00s view of Chinese integration and I would imagine it’s changed now China has “opened up” slightly more and there is more migration but interesting none the less.

That sounds interesting : I don't suppose you might remember where you read it?

There were 3 Chinese & 1 half-Chinese girl at my school. All popular with active social lives : parents somewhat Tiger parents, but tbf that was most parents at my school 🤣. I agree probably the 80s-90s era could've affected integration, after all China was just coming out from being completely shut off from the world. Also as I mentioned in pp, probably anti-Chinese racism was higher then & they could've had bad experiences that made them wary?

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Leakylady · 12/11/2025 15:38

@Carla786 Don't recall a single class on religions at LFCDG. Learned from my kids when they did RS in their British school!

Carla786 · 12/11/2025 15:37

ScaryM0nster · 12/11/2025 15:36

Look at expat numbers for places like Brussels, The Hague, Geneva……

Thank you, will definitely do this.

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ScaryM0nster · 12/11/2025 15:36

Carla786 · 12/11/2025 15:36

You mean that other European capital cities have similar expat/immigrant numbers to the ones we have? Interesting...I will research

Look at expat numbers for places like Brussels, The Hague, Geneva……

Carla786 · 12/11/2025 15:36

ScaryM0nster · 12/11/2025 15:34

You might find it interesting to do some research on nationality mix, both short term and permanent migrants in cities around the world.

I think you’ll find your assumptions aren’t supported.

You mean that other European capital cities have similar expat/immigrant numbers to the ones we have? Interesting...I will research

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Carla786 · 12/11/2025 15:35

HalloweenVibe · 12/11/2025 15:32

Where are these Chinese schools? All the ones I know of are Saturday language schools. All the chinese students I know of are in state or independent schools.

Presumably the family pp knew attended a school in a different area, for some reason or other?

I agree, I doubt there are many Chinese schools. I suspect also our government might be more wary of a foreign government's having schools here if it were one like China.

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ScaryM0nster · 12/11/2025 15:34

You might find it interesting to do some research on nationality mix, both short term and permanent migrants in cities around the world.

I think you’ll find your assumptions aren’t supported.

Carla786 · 12/11/2025 15:33

Leakylady · 12/11/2025 15:30

@Carla786 No visible politics: political concepts taught thematically with ethics, logic, philosophy in later years. No religion: no visible signs of religion to be worn. No teaching of religion on the premises. Example: you could sign up for CofE instruction at nearby St Augustine's church, but the vicar had to meet us outside school grounds to escort us there.

Ah right, thank you. That's interesting & I can definitely see benefits.

Re the 'no teaching religion' rule, presumably this means preaching/instruction? As in, there were still RS lessons that dealt with religions neutrally & factually?

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GreyCloudsLooming · 12/11/2025 15:32

Carla786 · 12/11/2025 15:24

Do these families intend to return to France later? Otherwise, why raise children as if they are in France rather than Britain?

Usually they might want French universities. And yes, they may go back to France at some point. Eg, I know someone who was in the lycee till about age 13, then went to school in France, then came back to the U.K. at 16.

HalloweenVibe · 12/11/2025 15:32

Bambamhoohoo · 12/11/2025 04:02

Different but related I remember a long form article I read years ago suggesting similar about the integration of the Chinese community.

it made me think about the multi generational family who own our local Chinese takeaway- they’ve been there over 30 years, with family members similar ages to myself, my siblings and children/ nieces. Yet none of them attended our local schools.

this is obviously quite a 80s/90s/00s view of Chinese integration and I would imagine it’s changed now China has “opened up” slightly more and there is more migration but interesting none the less.

Where are these Chinese schools? All the ones I know of are Saturday language schools. All the chinese students I know of are in state or independent schools.

Carla786 · 12/11/2025 15:31

YorkshireFrench · 12/11/2025 15:26

I didn't think you were anti-French at all 😊. I completely get your point and when living in London found the Lycée Francais crowd to be snobby and not interested in getting integrated so not my tribe. Also got heard stories of bullying / drug issues / no pastoral care but no direct experience so can't confirm if true.
Though I understand the reasons for parents who's kids are only here for a couple of years so no judgement!

Thank you 😊

That's a real shame about the Lycee people you met.. I had a browse of MN to see if there were threads about them & there were some mentions of lack of pastoral care. There was the sad article I linked earlier about the racism allegations this year, though tbf that could be a year group problem (we had had racism problems in my school in previous year groups I know, but my year & lower ones were fine afaik).
From what I've read, the school days are longer? I can see if teachers are stretched it could be harder to deal with bullying.

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Leakylady · 12/11/2025 15:30

@Carla786 No visible politics: political concepts taught thematically with ethics, logic, philosophy in later years. No religion: no visible signs of religion to be worn. No teaching of religion on the premises. Example: you could sign up for CofE instruction at nearby St Augustine's church, but the vicar had to meet us outside school grounds to escort us there.

YorkshireFrench · 12/11/2025 15:26

Carla786 · 12/11/2025 14:56

You sound really nice : definitely Saturday school seems like a good balance, sounds like you started a very helpful thing for French immigrants.

I really hope my posts don't seem anti-French.. I've tried to make clear (maybe not successfully) that I welcome French people coming to settle. The issue imo is with people of any nationality who come to settle permanently but don't want to embrace British culture- especially if they're sneering at British people as in pp's experience of a lycee (obviously just one person's experience). I have several French as well as Belgian friends & they all were taught to strongly appreciate their heritage & language while attending mainstream schools

My grandfather was an immigrant (WW2 Polish refugee) and there is a strong Polish community in my area with Saturday schools etc, which my family used. So I definitely sympathise with wanting to pass on culture in this way.

I agree with you re cultural/socioeconomic bubble : pps have noted that some lycees have had a lot of different nationalities/people there for various reasons,but this seems to be increasingly rarer. And ofc a French curriculum/education will be very different to a British one.

I feel similarly about faith schools : I appreciate issues like diet, sometimes bullying etc & I know a lot have many non-faith pupils, but otoh I think it's better for children to get this kind of education in another way apart from school.

Edited

I didn't think you were anti-French at all 😊. I completely get your point and when living in London found the Lycée Francais crowd to be snobby and not interested in getting integrated so not my tribe. Also got heard stories of bullying / drug issues / no pastoral care but no direct experience so can't confirm if true.
Though I understand the reasons for parents who's kids are only here for a couple of years so no judgement!

Carla786 · 12/11/2025 15:24

ickystickybubblegun · 12/11/2025 15:20

No.
DH is french and we have several friends whose children attend these schools. Everything at school is in French and everything in home is in French. As a result the children, who are born in the UK, speak very little English.

Do these families intend to return to France later? Otherwise, why raise children as if they are in France rather than Britain?

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Carla786 · 12/11/2025 15:23

MillsMollsMands · 12/11/2025 15:17

I always thought it was interesting that Ben Judah and his siblings went there - his mum has written a travel memoir about dragging them around Eastern Europe to follow their war reporter dad in the 80s/90s if you ever wanted insight into the Judah family life!

Oh I didn't know that, thanks! Will definitely read!

I really like Ben Judah, to me he hits the sweet spot of being progressive but realistic about culture clash potential etc I expect his childhood prepared him for the kind of reporting he had to do for This Is London and his Russian books. Sometimes I wish he was the foreign secretary rather than Lammy...

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ickystickybubblegun · 12/11/2025 15:20

Ddakji · 11/11/2025 18:56

It’s an interesting point. I would assume that these are children of French people only intending to be here temporarily (eg diplomats) so they want their children educated such that when they return to France there’s continuity. Is the French embassy round there? It rings a vague bell.

No.
DH is french and we have several friends whose children attend these schools. Everything at school is in French and everything in home is in French. As a result the children, who are born in the UK, speak very little English.

Carla786 · 12/11/2025 15:19

Bambamhoohoo · 12/11/2025 04:55

I’ve got no idea, that was my point. A large “high profile” family in a village- yet no idea what their lives were like outside of the takeaway at all. I can’t recall seeing them anywhere else, not even the local shops or supermarket for all those years.

thats what the article was about, the quiet non integration of the Chinese community, as the OP was suggesting for the French community.

I wonder if in the past they had had bad experiences? I'm reading Angela Hui's memoir Takeaway now, there're been quite a few similar ones coming out recently. Her parents' takeaway was in a Welsh village in the 1990s and they experienced a lot of racism including violent attacks. So maybe past/familial experiences made them wary?

You say they're the only Chinese people in the village- so there's no immigrant community to mix with. I hope they have friends somewhere.

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