Please or to access all these features

AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To wonder if UK lycees sometimes hinder the integration of French immigrant kids?

206 replies

Carla786 · 11/11/2025 18:53

I was reading Ben Judah's excellent book This Is London recently, about the relative integration of different immigrant groups in London. The focus was mainly on non-Western European immigrants, but there was some mention of the French immigrant population of Kensington.
I went to school there - my school was very near a lycee but I never thought much about it. I'm quite interested in France myself (my mum's a French teacher) and have several French friends (my school had a lot of European immigrants' children), I'm definitely not opposed to French people coming here. I'm just wondering if lycees are always helpful for integration. (Yes, I'm Gen Z- I know people will want to know why I'm on MN : I came for GC issues and stayed for the rest).

Generally we emphasise that it's important for immigrants to integrate with the existing population as much as possible. Lycees give French immigrants' children an education that follows the French curriculum, and I understand from what I've read are generally now composed of almost solely French children, though I understand the pupil cohort used to be more mixed in the past and maybe included more British children. If you grow up in a mainly French immigrant community and go to a lycee with mainly other French immigrant kids, how integrated will you be into the mainstream British population?
Generally when we talk about integration we focus on immigrant groups where sections are involved in crime or who mainly low-skilled. French immigrants are generally neither, so the lycee system isn't much remarked on. While I agree it's not a major concern, I still think it's worthy of comment.

We don't (I think) have lots of similar schools worldwide for the kids of Italian, German, Greek, Spanish, etc immigrants where they learn non-British curriculums. Yes, there are faith schools which sometimes overlap with ethnicity and have different curriculums (though I'd question that too- that topic's not for this thread, though).. I understand that lycees' educational standards are highly regarded & Brits or other immigrant nationalities sometimes send their kids there for that reason, esp since some run a parallel English curriculum(though as I said, the number of non-French pupils is much less now).

Still, I wonder how positive it is to have them if they're increasingly becoming nearly wholly French, and often used by families who are constantly on the move so that their kids can easily switch between lycees?

TLDR : AIBU to wonder if lycees may hinder integration of French immigrant kids if they now teach a French curriculum under the auspices of the French government to mainly French immigrant pupils who live generally in French immigrant-dominated areas? I'm definitely not saying they should be banned or anything, especially as UK state schools are generally bad at the moment..maybe there should be a push for a more mixed pupil cohort though?

OP posts:
New posts on this thread. Refresh page
Thread gallery
8
Carla786 · 13/11/2025 14:35

I have a Polish online pen pal & was actually debating this with her. She agreed that Brexit had been fuelled by valid issues (probably Brexit wasn't the answer for them, though). However, she argues that Poland, for instance, didn't benefit a lot more than the UK did, and that in some ways UK did benefit a lot. I think I'm coming round to this way of thinking.

OP posts:
Carla786 · 13/11/2025 14:32

Oriunda · 13/11/2025 13:40

Ok, so now you’re just trolling us! How can you say that people voted for Brexit because they didn’t have the same travel opportunities as other countries?! The whole point of being within the EU was that British people had exactly the same freedom of movement. Whereas now, they don’t.

Still, I hope we’re helping you with your essay.

Sorry, I didn't explain that very well! What I meant was that, for instance, we got many Polish and Romanian workers, to name two nationalities, coming here, whereas their economies were bad then and not as good places to travel to work (which was ofc a big reason WHY they came) so it benefited nationalities like those more than us, in that sense.
Also, I explained language issues on a previous post. Our government has been very poor at encouraging languages (GCSE foreign language not compulsory since 2004) so obviously Europeans would have a linguistic advantage in that sense.

OP posts:
Oriunda · 13/11/2025 13:40

Carla786 · 13/11/2025 12:12

I've said that I thought many felt they were not economically benefiting from EU, didn't have same travel opportunities as other countries had to come here, wages undercut by cheaper workers etc.

This challenges those ideas. I must research more later..

Ok, so now you’re just trolling us! How can you say that people voted for Brexit because they didn’t have the same travel opportunities as other countries?! The whole point of being within the EU was that British people had exactly the same freedom of movement. Whereas now, they don’t.

Still, I hope we’re helping you with your essay.

Carla786 · 13/11/2025 12:12

Swiftie1878 · 13/11/2025 12:09

You don’t know why people voted for Brexit?

I know it was a cultural issue to some extent, but I thought that element was less important than economics (also dislike of EU encouraging migration from other continents)

OP posts:
Carla786 · 13/11/2025 12:12

Swiftie1878 · 13/11/2025 12:09

You don’t know why people voted for Brexit?

I've said that I thought many felt they were not economically benefiting from EU, didn't have same travel opportunities as other countries had to come here, wages undercut by cheaper workers etc.

This challenges those ideas. I must research more later..

OP posts:
Swiftie1878 · 13/11/2025 12:09

Carla786 · 13/11/2025 11:55

That's really strange: why would areas receiving funding not vote Remain? Did they feel the funding wasn't being used efficiently?

I get London received less, however people who came due to EU would have benefited from that, also businesses who employed EU workers

There must be more to the story : was the vote a cultural protest them? Seems odd to vote something like that solely on cultural issues if the economy is going well.

You don’t know why people voted for Brexit?

Carla786 · 13/11/2025 12:06

EastGrinstead · 13/11/2025 12:01

@Carla786, you seem to have a very limited understand of the issue.

According to the OIF, over 300 million people worldwide speak French. Not every French speaker is a French national. There are French-speaking populations in Switzerland, Belgium, Canada, and in many former French and Belgian colonies.

Edited

Sorry, I didn't put 2 & 2 together. I did think of colony speakers etc but didn't compute that they wouldn't be French nationals.

Ofc, that makes sense. It doesn't disprove my point that going to a French-curriculum school with mostly French/Belgian or French colony (incl Canada) is clearly different from a British education, and that probably most people going will then be expats or francophone-descended.

OP posts:
EastGrinstead · 13/11/2025 12:01

Carla786 · 13/11/2025 01:57

Merci, c'est tres utile. I agree that a major flaw of my OP has been the ongoing lack of clarity over what the cohort of most lycees is . So, if only 40% of the pupils are French, why have several pps said it's very hard now for non-French speakers to get in & most pupils are Expat kids? Confusing...

@Carla786, you seem to have a very limited understand of the issue.

According to the OIF, over 300 million people worldwide speak French. Not every French speaker is a French national. There are French-speaking populations in Switzerland, Belgium, Canada, and in many former French and Belgian colonies.

Carla786 · 13/11/2025 11:59

Which of my numbers are not matching up? If I've made statistical mistakes, I apologise.

OP posts:
Carla786 · 13/11/2025 11:58

Sichsehnen · 13/11/2025 08:16

@BoudiccaRuled

I think you’re right and she may be very young and un/ill informed -

however, I think, I’m not sure, but I do think, that if you replaced “French/France” in the OPs posts by another nationality/ethinicity she would come across as, at best, totally detached from the realities of modern day life in big cities and socio economic realities of first world immigrants/expats and at worse as a ignorant xenophobic bigot.

Multiple times she has been told by multiple posters why certain people choose lycées for their children - she chooses not to respond to those posts.

She also seems to have no idea of scale and significance. No idea that most capital cities are not representative of their countries at all. (London is not the UK, Paris is not France, New York Is not the US, Vienna is not Austria, Mumbai is not India etc etc).

Im also not sure where she is getting her facts from because they don’t match official numbers I’ve found on Insee or the ONS.

I do hope for her sake it’s a wind up because if it is for an essay - alors elle n’aurait pas la moyenne car elle est hors-sujet!

Bref!

Going back to my day now.

I agree re capitals not necessarily being representative : but it's still fair to say that London is much more diverse than most other European capitals :

https://voxeurop.eu/en/the-map-of-the-cities-with-the-most-number-of-inhabitants-born-in-another-country/

The map of the cities with the most number of inhabitants born in another country - Voxeurop

With the exception of special cases like Luxembourg, in the majority of European countries the percentage of people born in a foreign country is less than 20% of the total population. As well as showing the proportion of the foreign-born population in...

https://voxeurop.eu/en/the-map-of-the-cities-with-the-most-number-of-inhabitants-born-in-another-country/

OP posts:
Carla786 · 13/11/2025 11:57

BoudiccaRuled · 13/11/2025 04:51

I appreciate the OP is declaring herself to be very young, but she seems to be totally unaware that every capital city around the globe has THOUSANDS of diplomats and their families. Further upthread she suggests that there aren't many expats living in Japan...
She grumbles that expats/diplomats etc are using up London housing that should be used for Londoners.
It's all a massive wind up or she's panic writing an essay.

It's fair to say Japan's foreign-born population in Tokyo is only 5%. Ours is 40%. Completely different scale.

Not that I think we should copy Japan. I'm just saying the scale is nor comparable.

OP posts:
Carla786 · 13/11/2025 11:55

TroyTheTough · 13/11/2025 09:54

Which UK regions receive the most EU funding? This sets out which areas received most EU funding (Cornwall, Wales etc). London and the South East received the least.

Living somewhere that received a high level of EU funding correlates with voting Leave, and receiving a low level of funding correlates with Remain. This is because poorer areas were more likely to vote Leave and they're sadly also the areas now suffering most from the fact that we have left.

That's really strange: why would areas receiving funding not vote Remain? Did they feel the funding wasn't being used efficiently?

I get London received less, however people who came due to EU would have benefited from that, also businesses who employed EU workers

There must be more to the story : was the vote a cultural protest them? Seems odd to vote something like that solely on cultural issues if the economy is going well.

OP posts:
Carla786 · 13/11/2025 11:42

Sorry, that was to StellaAndCrow!

OP posts:
Carla786 · 13/11/2025 11:42

That's interesting: did your region vote Leave or Remain? I presume Remain?

OP posts:
TroyTheTough · 13/11/2025 09:54

Which UK regions receive the most EU funding? This sets out which areas received most EU funding (Cornwall, Wales etc). London and the South East received the least.

Living somewhere that received a high level of EU funding correlates with voting Leave, and receiving a low level of funding correlates with Remain. This is because poorer areas were more likely to vote Leave and they're sadly also the areas now suffering most from the fact that we have left.

Which UK regions receive the most EU funding?

And which of them voted for Brexit?

https://www.prospectmagazine.co.uk/politics/43279/which-uk-regions-receive-the-most-eu-funding

StellaAndCrow · 13/11/2025 09:40

Carla786 · 13/11/2025 01:45

Poor old Theresa May 🤣 She didn't phrase it well, but I do think she had a valid point. I personally think greater world cooperation is something laudable to strive for: imagine how many problems we could solve together if we didn't have idiots like Putin, Xi, etc standing in the way.

But otoh I do think more transient lifestyles can foster a internationalist/global perspective which doesn't see as much the ways people in the home country may not benefit unless they're in an international hub city like London. Eg. EU benefiting Londoners more than other areas (as shown by disparity in voting). There was an interesting thread yesterday I think on 'what makes you feel British?' Or was it 'DD won't feel British?' Anyway, there was one post saying, 'The idea of needing to belong to one place is outdated'. This is an example of the kind of internationalist view which seems to me to be a bit inured to other perspectives.

"Eg. EU benefiting Londoners more than other areas"

Interested in why you think this.

EU funding targeted economically disadvantaged areas - my region in the north got significant EU funding for huge projects to improve the local community, and lost a lot from leaving the EU.

EBearhug · 13/11/2025 09:20

I've mentioned in earlier posts how friends & acquaintances at my school I felt had quite London-centric/internationalist etc views, & to some extent seemed disconnected from the wider country.

But that's just London. You'll find people across the UK complaining the news is too London-centric, that people deciding public transport policy don't understand it's not like London provision etc. We talk about the Westminster bubble and things like that. If you grew up in rural Cornwall or the Scottish Highlands or a depressed Welsh industrial town that lost all its industry, you probably do feel very disconnected from London. It's possible that lycées and other International schools might exacerbate those feelings of disconnect (not unlike a failing state comprehensive vs a top public school, perhaps,) but it's certainly not unique to schools.

GreyCloudsLooming · 13/11/2025 09:15

Carla786 · 13/11/2025 02:29

I don't mean there'd be major culture clash/alienation for kids there : obviously this is unlikely if bilingual, well-educated etc.

It does sound a bit of a bubble,as you say.. I get it being cheaper etc than other schools nearby. Otoh I do find it a bit hard to understand why someone would settle here yet want their child to be educated as if in France- surely if you move to Britain it'd make more sense to give a British education?

Because they don’t want a British education. They’ve heard all about overstretched state schools and kids running riot and time spent (wasted) on PE and art. They think the French education system is better. They might move countries quite frequently and the French system allows you to do that. They want their DC to go to French universities in the main. They might not settle here. Eg, one friend of mine attended the lycée for just a year before his parents moved back to Paris. My daughter’s friend at the lycée spent two years there before moving to live with grandparents in Paris (without her parents) and then returning at age 16. Left again at 19.

Sichsehnen · 13/11/2025 08:16

@BoudiccaRuled

I think you’re right and she may be very young and un/ill informed -

however, I think, I’m not sure, but I do think, that if you replaced “French/France” in the OPs posts by another nationality/ethinicity she would come across as, at best, totally detached from the realities of modern day life in big cities and socio economic realities of first world immigrants/expats and at worse as a ignorant xenophobic bigot.

Multiple times she has been told by multiple posters why certain people choose lycées for their children - she chooses not to respond to those posts.

She also seems to have no idea of scale and significance. No idea that most capital cities are not representative of their countries at all. (London is not the UK, Paris is not France, New York Is not the US, Vienna is not Austria, Mumbai is not India etc etc).

Im also not sure where she is getting her facts from because they don’t match official numbers I’ve found on Insee or the ONS.

I do hope for her sake it’s a wind up because if it is for an essay - alors elle n’aurait pas la moyenne car elle est hors-sujet!

Bref!

Going back to my day now.

BoudiccaRuled · 13/11/2025 04:51

I appreciate the OP is declaring herself to be very young, but she seems to be totally unaware that every capital city around the globe has THOUSANDS of diplomats and their families. Further upthread she suggests that there aren't many expats living in Japan...
She grumbles that expats/diplomats etc are using up London housing that should be used for Londoners.
It's all a massive wind up or she's panic writing an essay.

Carla786 · 13/11/2025 02:47

Tbf the different names given to London show the silliness of the wilder scare narratives about it. If you're Melanie Phillips, it's been 'Londonistan' since the early 2000s. If you're Putin's henchmen, as Ben Judah has also reported, it's 'Londongrad' or 'Moskva-on-Thames'. If you're this year's Daily Telegraph, it's the emblem of the fearful 'Yookay'. Of course, it can't exactly be all these things at once : yet there's truth in them all. There are a lot of issues caused by the very fast internationalisation of London, but there's also plenty of pros..

OP posts:
Carla786 · 13/11/2025 02:35

Knnniggets · 12/11/2025 09:13

I can add that those who go to these international or European schools often have no particularly strong affiliation to any country and will never be considered local anywhere. I don't see it as particularly negative for society as a whole, as the number of such people is small. However on an individual level, it takes some soul searching to find a community/sense of belonging.

Hmm...I agree re the 'not feeling local' being a possible issue.

I'm not sure of the wider issue is a small one. As I said in OP, Judah mentioned the French community as just one of the many who make London one of the most international cities, and the book was discussing the pros & cons of that. So that led me to think a bit more about the French community specifically and lycees, especially as they're one of the less-dicussed London communities but also one of the largest at around 300,000: apparently London is known to some as 'France's sixth biggest city'.

OP posts:
Carla786 · 13/11/2025 02:31

Bambamhoohoo · 12/11/2025 04:55

I’ve got no idea, that was my point. A large “high profile” family in a village- yet no idea what their lives were like outside of the takeaway at all. I can’t recall seeing them anywhere else, not even the local shops or supermarket for all those years.

thats what the article was about, the quiet non integration of the Chinese community, as the OP was suggesting for the French community.

Hmm...I see what you mean, but otoh unless there as a Chinese immigrant community nearby with whom they were going to school, presumably they were just going to a different school? In which case they might well have been integrated/made friends etc with the local population.

OP posts:
Carla786 · 13/11/2025 02:29

Twilightstarbright · 12/11/2025 08:19

DH went to LFCDGand @Leakylady summed it up well. Very typical- French parent felt French schools were better and crucially it was cheaper than the private schools near where he lived in the outskirts of London.

He always said it was an odd expat culture but not exclusively French- lots of ex French colonies or Middle Eastern diplomats kids. Very snobby and very rich!

I wouldn’t worry about the French teenagers of London integrating.

I don't mean there'd be major culture clash/alienation for kids there : obviously this is unlikely if bilingual, well-educated etc.

It does sound a bit of a bubble,as you say.. I get it being cheaper etc than other schools nearby. Otoh I do find it a bit hard to understand why someone would settle here yet want their child to be educated as if in France- surely if you move to Britain it'd make more sense to give a British education?

OP posts:
Sichsehnen · 13/11/2025 02:21

These are the only actually French ones - the others will be partners and teach in French but are not "french schools" - So even LIWC isn't "French"

https://aefe.gouv.fr/fr/etablissements?pays=Royaume-Uni&ville=Londres&niveau_scolaire=All&nom=&statut=P

This is the list of partner schools - but they aren't "french" they're just bilingual and teach some classes in French.

To wonder if UK lycees sometimes hinder the integration of French immigrant kids?
To wonder if UK lycees sometimes hinder the integration of French immigrant kids?