Fuck it - the government will look me

But it clearly does. If the recipient ends up by a car with it. Or is this like a Schrodinger’s car? Maybe it’s there, maybe it’s not.

When this government came into power they gave immediate above inflation pay rises to train drivers and NHS workers. This was clearly an agreement and seemed to appease the unions. Ok! Both sectors wages have stagnated since the crash. I am not making a moral argument here.

Could the arrangement with the unions not have been put on hold for a year, by prior agreement, and that money used for investment?

That could have been a start!

@Swiftie1878 & do you believe that if we to receive a bailout all state pension payouts would cease?

Right wing rage is often not awfully cogent.

This country was in free fall for years before the current government took power.

We are in the shit. Hard decisions will need to be made by whomever is in power.

Get ready for a REALLY hard time if Reform get in.

We are also outliers on our welfare system. Many counties are time limited and contribution based. We have far too many people not contributing comparatively because our system allows it.

I agree our welfare model isn't sustainable because people haven't paid enough but how do you fix that now with such a large proportion of older people?

I don’t believe we’re there yet either, but given the speed with which this chancellor nurtures huge Black Holes that suddenly need filling, I am worried about it.

but I am saying that when PIP is calculated, if it includes an amount to fund a car that is unwanted or unneeded, that amount should be removed

It doesn't include an amount to fund a car.
Here is a simple explanation, which I hope will help you understand.

What PIP is for

Personal Independence Payment (PIP) can help with extra living costs if you have both:

a long-term physical or mental health condition or disability

difficulty doing certain everyday tasks or getting around because of your condition

You can get PIP even if you’re working, have savings or are getting most other benefits.

How PIP works

There are 2 parts to PIP:

a daily living part - if you need help with everyday tasks
a mobility part - if you need help with getting around

Whether you get one or both parts and how much you get depends on how difficult you find everyday tasks and getting around.

I’m not sure I understand your point, so forgive me if I reply in a half-cocked way, but I am saying that when PIP is calculated, if it includes an amount to fund a car that is unwanted or unneeded, that amount should be removed. It shouldn’t be a case of ‘well you’re entitled to a car, so here’s £x,000 per year for a lease’ and then the recipient decides to spend that money on something else instead.
This is NOT free money, and shouldn’t be treated as such.

You don't understand. The mobility element of PIP is not awarded to people so that they can use it to lease a car. It is awarded in recognition of their mobility needs.

But they can choose to use it for that. Other people use it for electric wheel chairs, or to pay for taxis or whatever they think fit.

However, that is not the higher earners, broadest shoulders or whatever. They pay exceptionally high rates compared to other economies.

@Legolava can you expand on the above. I already said upthread that lower & middle earners (on paye) pay less vs other European countries but I thought higher earners (paye) were broadly in line as opposed to exceptionally high. Do you mean the loss of childcare incentives etc?

Me neither. Not a clue.

Yes that difference is a major factor and will impact behaviour. Especially over a long period of time.

Why did we diverge? It’s storing up an increasingly difficult issue to resolve.

That is what I said. Non-contributory benefits are not time-limited including UC.

I don't know what other countries do. But I assume most European countries have some kind of long-term benefit system, otherwise people would starve.

For example: a quick Google tells me Germany has a contributory system which is time limited and an open ended system:

"If a worker is not eligible for the full unemployment benefits or after receiving the full unemployment benefit for the maximum of 12 months, he is able to apply for benefits from the so-called Hartz IV programme, an open-ended welfare programme."

Because it's the highest mobility element of PIP/DLA and it has been assessed that they are disabled enough to qualify for the highest mobility element?

The bottom line is the vast majority of tax payers don't have an issue with supporting genuinely disabled people. The issue is the ever increasing definition of hidden disabilities and the ever increasing pathologizing of normal emotions. Everyone feels stressed and anxious sometimes but when one person receives a benefit for it and someone else pays for it despite suffering from it themselves then there will always be an divide.

I actually think we can't be flippant about that possibility. I know people who have left and leaving, lots turning the idea over.

@Swiftie1878 I don't believe we are at the point now of needing an IMF bailout, I'm happy to read a credible source that says we are? I don't believe all state pension payouts will stop if we did get to the point we needed an IMF bailout.

@Legolava Interesting - off to research this now. The question will be “how can we replicate the culture of those countries?”.

So how does my profoundly disabled daughter who will never live independently, has no concept of time or money and would basically die if she had to live by herself get incentivised to go to work.

Oh and the £83 a week Carers Allowance I get for her wouldn't even touch the sides of the amount of money the government would have to pay out if she was in full time residential care.

I am going to step away from this thread now as I can feel myself getting angrier and angrier.

Yes there probably are people who cheat the benefits system just as there are many wealthy companies and individuals who con the government out of tax they should be paying.

I am tired of being made to feel ashamed because I happened to have a profoundly disabled child. I had a professional career but sadly my choices did not include my partner dying. I also volunteer for a charity one day a week and the number of times I have had to cancel because my DD is unable to go to her special school because of health issues makes me feel guilty. I am lucky they are so understanding.

I am so sick of all people on benefits being tarred with the same brush despite all the faux protestations of "oh of course we don't mean you".

This country has serious issues but I really don't think that cutting welfare is going to solve them.

Oh and by the way from April next year the element of UC that is awarded when a person is unable to work due to illness or disability is being cut by 50%.

I spend every day of my life worrying for my daughter and I don't need people saying she just needs a bit more incentive.

Some people clearly want to limit choices of disabled people. Vouchers wouldn't save money and it might make some people feel better but it isn't going to help disabled people or give disabled people more choices as an example.

I believe 90% of our lives is the summation of our own choices. Bar (some of) our own (and families) health and tragic life events, there is very little we can’t choose in this country

nope. That’s just not true.

Then the point stands. If they don’t want a car or can’t drive, why is the taxpayer giving them money for one?

During this parliament?

Don’t make that bet. You won’t be able to afford it! 😂