To have expected her to take the kid out when this happened?

So it's laziness for this one parent but every excuse under the sun comes out for the rest? Maybe this mum has her 'reasons' too - maybe she has 'necessity' too.

Sneering comments about parental laziness are only for people who are not... you?

I think putting all of this down to 'laziness' is unreasonable. Yes it's possible to toilet train some 1 year olds, but it's a much lengthier process which requires full time parental presence over a long period of time. I have a friend whose little girl was potty trained by 18 months, but she had been doing elimination communication virtually from birth. Crucially, she could do this because she is a SAHM and spends all day every day with her daughter.

Most modern families can't support a full time SAHP. The majority of parents are in full or part time work. It's not laziness to not have potty trained before 2 if the reality is you aren't at home with your child 24/7 for months at a time.

Older children will potty train quicker. My eldest got it within a week when we trained him at 2 years and 3 months. He absolutely wouldn't have if we'd tried before 2. And we both work full time, so we needed to know that we could focus on it for a short, intensive period, rather than spending months on it. My second was a little older, 2 and a half I think, because we simply didn't have a week to take to train her before then. Sneering comments about 'parental convenience' don't account for the reality that it's often actually necessity not convenience - the necessity of working to keep a roof over everyone's head, etc.

Your tone says it. 'i didn't use those exact words' is pathetic.

There are massive developmental differences around sense of self between a one year old and a 4 year old

So? Doesn't change the fact that 1 year olds soiling themselves is down to parental convenience, nothing more.

A one year old is not going to feel embarrassed about shitting in a nappy

So? It doesn't seem like this 4-year-old was either so are you saying that makes it OK? Doesn't change the fact that 1 year olds soiling themselves is down to parental convenience, nothing more.

They also don’t have the expressive language (until they are nearer the age of 2 ) to be able to say that they need a shit.

1 year olds absolutely can communicate they need a poo, what a silly thing to say, and proves my point -it comes down to effort on the parents' side. Doesn't change the fact that 1 year olds soiling themselves is down to parental convenience, nothing more.

A NT 4 year old has a far more advanced sense of self, desire for privacy and understanding of their environment

All of them? Have you met them all? Or are you just generally sweeping that statement in to educate people on what you think is a good thing to say?

All of what you've said just backs up what I've said. We justify keeping kids in nappies until a convenient age through laziness - then look down on others after we find it easier to train them.

I don't have any experience here, can anyone enlighten me?

Does a child who withholds still know that they have an impending need for a poo? Of course they shouldn't be made to keep it in, but can they be taught to excuse themselves to a more private place than someone's lounge?

Flipping heck!

I wasn’t expecting so many responses or
for it to turn into the usual late toilet trainer bashing.

My question was about whether it would have been reasonable to whisk her out of the room rather than let her carry on and stinking the place out.

Although both my DC trained at “normal” age, DS took longer with transitioning from pooing in a nappy (he was 3 when we cracked it) but once he was “dry” we always insisted that poos happened in the bathroom, whether in a nappy or otherwise!

Even when both DC were toddlers, if I could see a poo
coming, I would pick them up and take them into a loo or bathroom if we were in company.

In a sense I shouldn’t really have mentioned the age, but surely it would have been polite to remove
her to the bathroom once it was obvious what was happening?

Anyway, perhaps time for the mods to close this thread as it has degenerated into yet another debate about toilet training ages, which was not my intention at all.

Calm down love

I wouldn’t really care what the full situation is. If the child can’t be either relied upon to not shit in the living room OR immediately be taken out of the living room if she starts shitting, her parents need to confine their activities to places where people won’t be forced to see, hear and smell the defecation.

And I would hope that includes restaurants, cinemas, etc as well as private homes.

There have always been children with SEN or medical issues (and I’d argue that those needs are far better recognised now than back in the 1970s, which kind of blows your argument out of the water.)

But you’re ignoring the fact that schools report a huge increase among reception children who have no SEN/ medical conditions who just haven’t been toilet trained. They haven’t had their needs met adequately by their parents.

You said that you've never had a conversation about the childs bowels so it's perfectly possible that something medical is going on which you don't know about.

It doesn't always have to be related to autism etc either.

I wouldn't judge without knowing the full situation.

Grim in the extreme and piss poor parenting and yes a 4 year old should be potty trained assuming there is no sen. I would be completely shocked and I don’t know anyone who would think that was acceptable but I’m sure you will get loads of replies saying it is .. parenting standards seem to have sunk to an all time low

Your tone says it. 'i didn't use those exact words' is pathetic.

There are massive developmental differences around sense of self between a one year old and a 4 year old

So? Doesn't change the fact that 1 year olds soiling themselves is down to parental convenience, nothing more.

A one year old is not going to feel embarrassed about shitting in a nappy

So? It doesn't seem like this 4-year-old was either so are you saying that makes it OK? Doesn't change the fact that 1 year olds soiling themselves is down to parental convenience, nothing more.

They also don’t have the expressive language (until they are nearer the age of 2 ) to be able to say that they need a shit.

1 year olds absolutely can communicate they need a poo, what a silly thing to say, and proves my point -it comes down to effort on the parents' side. Doesn't change the fact that 1 year olds soiling themselves is down to parental convenience, nothing more.

A NT 4 year old has a far more advanced sense of self, desire for privacy and understanding of their environment

All of them? Have you met them all? Or are you just generally sweeping that statement in to educate people on what you think is a good thing to say?

All of what you've said just backs up what I've said. We justify keeping kids in nappies until a convenient age through laziness - then look down on others after we find it easier to train them.

You’re the one mentioning smug and superior - weird. I haven’t used those words at all.

There are massive developmental differences around sense of self between a one year old and a 4 year old. A one year old is not going to feel embarrassed about shitting in a nappy. They also don’t have the expressive language (until they are nearer the age of 2 ) to be able to say that they need a shit.

A NT 4 year old has a far more advanced sense of self, desire for privacy and understanding of their environment.

Astonishing that a few posters don’t seem to understand that - but I guess that explains the increase in school children who aren’t toilet trained if their parents think their 4 year old has no difference in needs to a child two years younger!!

Shitting in your pants is demeaning for any child. Developmentally, 1 year olds are perfectly capable of being toilet trained but it requires a level of effort that parents are not prepared to put in. And so we encourage them to soil themselves for our convenience - and pride ourselves on doing so.

There isn't much to be smug and superior about.

I think these things are hard to judge. Unless she's shared all her child's medical history with you etc. you don't know if she's suffering from constipation or something else which might 1) impact toilet training and 2) mean that you'd never interrupt a poo when it's actually happening.

Not many parents are happily choosing to change nappies indefinitely so the fact that she's not toilet trained makes me wonder if there is something medical going on which her mum understandably isn't sharing widely.

So yes while it's not nice I would err on the side of interpreting generously and light a candle to burn off any lingering odour.

The age is a red herring? So you don’t believe there are developmental differences between a 2 and a 4 year old? Good grief.

The developmental differences of NT children at those ages are absolutely huge. There’s the language difference (the average NT 4 year old will have vastly more advanced receptive and expressive language,) greater physical control, and - really importantly - a far more advanced sense of self and of what’s acceptable in different contexts. A parent who ignores those factors is being neglectful and not treating their child with respect.

A one year old shitting in their nappy in someone’s lounge won’t have the language to say what they’re doing and may not even show any physical response.

A two year old is already more likely to want some privacy - hiding behind sofa etc.

A 4 year old still in a nappy who is taken out for lunch and very obviously squats, grunts and takes a shit with the parent just periodically asking ‘have you finished?’ is just grim on every level. It’s totally demeaning for the child.

it sounds like some people just don’t believe that this happens for a minority of NT children. They don’t believe what schools are saying - that it’s become increasingly common for reception class children to not be toilet trained. The OP’s situation sounds exactly like that - the only difference being that the kid isn’t yet in school because of when their 4th birthday fell. I don’t get why a minority of posters are minimising this, as if a child’s dignity and right to have their developmental needs met just doesn’t matter.

Your example of societies not using nappies isn't helpful.

Which society in the world has the latest age of tolerating a child unable to control their bowels sufficiently to move to a toileting area for a crap?

The age is NOT a red herring. A 2 year old is much less capable of controlling their bodily functions than a 4 year old. A 2 year old is not producing the volume of shit that a 4 year old is. A 4 year old has had at least a year past the normal age to be potty trained to lean the skill.

To be honest I'd be starting to question why the mother wants her daughter to remain infantalised.

The most astonishing thing about this thread for me is that 38% of people so far in the poll think this it's reasonable for a non-SEN 4 year old to crap in someone's else's lounge!