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Darlington nurse case flying under the radar

235 replies

hardstareglare · 07/11/2025 16:24

Aibu to think that the Darlington nurse case in court right now has not had much press and that it is a very important case.

OP posts:
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16
IBorAlevels · 08/11/2025 09:19

28th October BBC - Hospital 'prioritised' rights of transgender staff (Headline changed from ‘Trans row hospital feared bullying label’)
The change of headline says it all on how they want it to be read

hardstareglare · 08/11/2025 09:14

IBorAlevels · 08/11/2025 09:12

You are right - certainly not on the BBC website! They must realise women are 51% of the population and would be interested in this story as it means either the law is being upheld in settings where everyone goes in vulnerable.

If this was any other complaint to HR it would be met very differently.

It would seem women are not allowed bodily autonomy in 2025.

OP posts:
hardstareglare · 08/11/2025 09:13

maudelovesharold · 08/11/2025 08:48

Yes, frustratingly, it’s much more likely that the right-wing press/media will cover stories like this in detail and the left/liberal papers and broadcasters tend not to, because transwomen hurty feelings.

I think that is part of the problem.

Only right wing papers have been reporting on these issues and therefore it supports the idea that it's a bigoted view not to allow trans identifying men into women's changing rooms and sports.

OP posts:
IBorAlevels · 08/11/2025 09:12

You are right - certainly not on the BBC website! They must realise women are 51% of the population and would be interested in this story as it means either the law is being upheld in settings where everyone goes in vulnerable.

hardstareglare · 08/11/2025 09:08

OllyBJolly · 08/11/2025 09:01

Here's one of the reasons it's "under the radar"

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/gift/5ac2c6a0bb851134

Do you have an archive version of that article by any chance?
or copy and paste.

OP posts:
Coatsoff42 · 08/11/2025 08:56

maudelovesharold · 08/11/2025 08:48

Yes, frustratingly, it’s much more likely that the right-wing press/media will cover stories like this in detail and the left/liberal papers and broadcasters tend not to, because transwomen hurty feelings.

Yes, I was a guardian subscriber for years, but I had to cancel it after the coverage of FWS. It was so sad for me, I love Lucy mangans writing!

maudelovesharold · 08/11/2025 08:48

Office365Error · 08/11/2025 08:20

Yanbu that it's important. Yabu to say it wasn't covered. Yanbu to say not all newspapers covered equally.
The MN hated Dailymail had few articles a week for months. If not nearly every day. And not buried somewhere under Taylor Swift news.
Including quite a harrowing read about Karen Danson's experience. That was a concerning read. Really

Yes, frustratingly, it’s much more likely that the right-wing press/media will cover stories like this in detail and the left/liberal papers and broadcasters tend not to, because transwomen hurty feelings.

Office365Error · 08/11/2025 08:20

Yanbu that it's important. Yabu to say it wasn't covered. Yanbu to say not all newspapers covered equally.
The MN hated Dailymail had few articles a week for months. If not nearly every day. And not buried somewhere under Taylor Swift news.
Including quite a harrowing read about Karen Danson's experience. That was a concerning read. Really

porridgecake · 08/11/2025 07:58

Letthemeatgateau · 08/11/2025 07:50

Carrying out surgery at another hospital could involve much longer waits and a change of surgeon which the staff member might not want. Fair enough if that's what they wish.

What normally happens where I've worked is that an all female team is provided for female theatre staff, whatever kind of surgery is being undertaken. As it should be.

Edited

Unfortunately the majority of the NHS now insists that any man can be a woman if he says he feels like one. Female patients and staff have suffered dreadfully in the name of DEI for years.
That is not to ignore the fact that abuse and assault by male staff not calling themselves women hasn't been happening forever. Gender ideology has just made it much easier.

Letthemeatgateau · 08/11/2025 07:50

Dancingsquirrels · 08/11/2025 07:06

I'd think it would be uncomfortable for any patient to have gynae procedures carried out by any of their colleagues. Perhaps they should routinely by carried out at another hospital, unless the patient chooses otherwise

Carrying out surgery at another hospital could involve much longer waits and a change of surgeon which the staff member might not want. Fair enough if that's what they wish.

What normally happens where I've worked is that an all female team is provided for female theatre staff, whatever kind of surgery is being undertaken. As it should be.

Dancingsquirrels · 08/11/2025 07:06

Letthemeatgateau · 07/11/2025 17:28

And let's not forget that when one of the nurses - who is a survivor of childhood sexual abuse - needed gynae surgery, the male she and others had complained about was scheduled to be present during her surgery:

But worse was to come for Karen. By, as she says, ‘an unhappy coincidence’, she was due to have a gynaecological operation at Darlington Memorial Hospital in August 2024.

To her horror, she discovered that Rose was scheduled to be involved.

The procedure would be part robotic, and Rose’s role would involve being at the bedside, passing tools to the surgeon.

“It is difficult to put into words how I felt,” Karen said, “I immediately knew this was ethically wrong and that my condition would be made worse and more painful with the stress it would cause.”

With a colleague, Karen approached the theatre manager and explained the situation, the legal case and how Rose’s involvement would be “completely inappropriate”, and that she wanted women involved in the operation.

Astonishingly the theatre manager said: “But Rose is a woman”.

She added that she thought Karen was being “prejudiced”.

She tried to explain that she was not singling Rose out, but that there was clearly a conflict of interest and because of her childhood trauma she wanted women involved in the procedure.

Regarding Rose being removed from the operating team, Karen was asked: “How do you think that would make Rose feel?”

She was given the choice of cancelling her surgery, trying to get it done at another hospital, or allowing Rose to be part of the operation. Any delays would prolong the pain she was in and had been for some time.

After putting her position in writing, the theatre manager wrote to her and said that her request could not be accommodated “due to clinical and staffing skill mix issues.”

With legal support and advice from the Christian Legal Centre, days before the operation, Karen went to the Patient Advisory and Liaison Service (PALS).

After outlining her situation, PALS swiftly made the decision that it was not appropriate for Rose to be involved.

Despite what the theatre manager had said, it appeared very possible to reallocate staff so that Rose was not involved in the operation.

“I believed this was purely vindictive and demonstrated how low they were prepared to go,” Karen said. “Gender identity was placed above patient and staff care. They tried to punish me for the legal case I was part of and for opposing gender identity policy within the hospital.”

I'd think it would be uncomfortable for any patient to have gynae procedures carried out by any of their colleagues. Perhaps they should routinely by carried out at another hospital, unless the patient chooses otherwise

Coatsoff42 · 08/11/2025 07:03

Not one of the senior nurses, or HR team with all their “difficult conversations” training managed to discuss the situation with Rose. Selling the nurses out because they are all Arse Covering Responsibility Shirking Cowards.

The RCN were an absolute shower too.

hardstareglare · 08/11/2025 06:49

Letthemeatgateau · 07/11/2025 17:28

And let's not forget that when one of the nurses - who is a survivor of childhood sexual abuse - needed gynae surgery, the male she and others had complained about was scheduled to be present during her surgery:

But worse was to come for Karen. By, as she says, ‘an unhappy coincidence’, she was due to have a gynaecological operation at Darlington Memorial Hospital in August 2024.

To her horror, she discovered that Rose was scheduled to be involved.

The procedure would be part robotic, and Rose’s role would involve being at the bedside, passing tools to the surgeon.

“It is difficult to put into words how I felt,” Karen said, “I immediately knew this was ethically wrong and that my condition would be made worse and more painful with the stress it would cause.”

With a colleague, Karen approached the theatre manager and explained the situation, the legal case and how Rose’s involvement would be “completely inappropriate”, and that she wanted women involved in the operation.

Astonishingly the theatre manager said: “But Rose is a woman”.

She added that she thought Karen was being “prejudiced”.

She tried to explain that she was not singling Rose out, but that there was clearly a conflict of interest and because of her childhood trauma she wanted women involved in the procedure.

Regarding Rose being removed from the operating team, Karen was asked: “How do you think that would make Rose feel?”

She was given the choice of cancelling her surgery, trying to get it done at another hospital, or allowing Rose to be part of the operation. Any delays would prolong the pain she was in and had been for some time.

After putting her position in writing, the theatre manager wrote to her and said that her request could not be accommodated “due to clinical and staffing skill mix issues.”

With legal support and advice from the Christian Legal Centre, days before the operation, Karen went to the Patient Advisory and Liaison Service (PALS).

After outlining her situation, PALS swiftly made the decision that it was not appropriate for Rose to be involved.

Despite what the theatre manager had said, it appeared very possible to reallocate staff so that Rose was not involved in the operation.

“I believed this was purely vindictive and demonstrated how low they were prepared to go,” Karen said. “Gender identity was placed above patient and staff care. They tried to punish me for the legal case I was part of and for opposing gender identity policy within the hospital.”

I have no words

OP posts:
NumberTheory · 08/11/2025 01:32

Bluebootsgreenboots · 07/11/2025 23:18

I don't get this bit though because, as far as we know, men weren't being forced to change in front of women, ie, there were no women using the men's changing rooms. So why is it a comparitor?

Going back now to carry on reading.

The Trust's position seems to have been that their policy didn't discriminate against women because it also allowed trans identified women to change in the men's changing room if they wanted to. So neither men nor women were guaranteed single sex changing and so were equally treated by the trust. The nurses, with the help of Jo Phoenix, pointed out what we all know - it's not the same fucking thing at all.

I believe the important part of this is that a claim on the basis of sex discrimination can attract an unlimited award from an employment tribunal. A claim that the employer has simply failed to provide statutory changing facilities - not so much.

Boiledbeetle · 07/11/2025 23:25

Bluebootsgreenboots · 07/11/2025 23:18

I don't get this bit though because, as far as we know, men weren't being forced to change in front of women, ie, there were no women using the men's changing rooms. So why is it a comparitor?

Going back now to carry on reading.

He was purely trying to get out of admitting that they discriminated against the women by making them change with a man so was just spouting whatever shite entered his head as he'd obviously never given any actual thought to the issue whatsoever.

Bluebootsgreenboots · 07/11/2025 23:18

borntobequiet · 07/11/2025 17:48

The nurses had to bring in an expert witness to state that women don’t like to get undressed in front of men. Earlier in the tribunal the (male) head of HR for the trust had claimed, when questioned, that it was no worse for women to change in front of men than it would be for men to change in front of women.

(as per previous post)

Edited

I don't get this bit though because, as far as we know, men weren't being forced to change in front of women, ie, there were no women using the men's changing rooms. So why is it a comparitor?

Going back now to carry on reading.

hardstareglare · 07/11/2025 23:12

The vote is pretty conclusive

92% IANBU

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Boiledbeetle · 07/11/2025 22:20

QuornPlaster · 07/11/2025 21:50

There should be extra safeguards in place for foreign workers to be able to complain/whistleblow. Especially given a lot of countries that we pull nurses in from are more socially & religiously conservative.

I can’t imagine the pressure to withdraw your complaint under ‘normal’ circumstances - when you’re thinking about rent/mortgage, bills & being able to apply for another job without having to disclose being under investigation.

Throw in work visa & being under investigation - there are some countries you’d never be eligible to work in again.

Not only that but the theatre manager who was very much "Rose is a woman" conceded on the stand that the international nurses don't like getting changed in the communal space in the changing room. But she rather absurdly tried to claim this was because they didn't want to change in front of anyone, even women. Nothing to do with the hulking bloke in holey boxer shorts staring at women and asking nurses if they were getting changed and asking one nurse about pregnancy breasts. No, nothing to do with that at all.

My eyes rolled so hard!

Talkinpeace · 07/11/2025 22:06

Women who know are scared / not believed

Women wo do not yet know cannot believe its happening

the end

hardstareglare · 07/11/2025 21:52

team nurses

OP posts:
QuornPlaster · 07/11/2025 21:50

There should be extra safeguards in place for foreign workers to be able to complain/whistleblow. Especially given a lot of countries that we pull nurses in from are more socially & religiously conservative.

I can’t imagine the pressure to withdraw your complaint under ‘normal’ circumstances - when you’re thinking about rent/mortgage, bills & being able to apply for another job without having to disclose being under investigation.

Throw in work visa & being under investigation - there are some countries you’d never be eligible to work in again.

Redshoeblueshoe · 07/11/2025 21:30

I'm shocked about how many people don't know about this.
#TeamNurses

porridgecake · 07/11/2025 20:57

Yet lots of women and men on mumsnet campaigned for years for any posts on this topic to be kept off the main boards and limited to one board so that fewer women would read them. Presumably women like those managers.

Justwrong68 · 07/11/2025 20:51

Letthemeatgateau · 07/11/2025 17:28

And let's not forget that when one of the nurses - who is a survivor of childhood sexual abuse - needed gynae surgery, the male she and others had complained about was scheduled to be present during her surgery:

But worse was to come for Karen. By, as she says, ‘an unhappy coincidence’, she was due to have a gynaecological operation at Darlington Memorial Hospital in August 2024.

To her horror, she discovered that Rose was scheduled to be involved.

The procedure would be part robotic, and Rose’s role would involve being at the bedside, passing tools to the surgeon.

“It is difficult to put into words how I felt,” Karen said, “I immediately knew this was ethically wrong and that my condition would be made worse and more painful with the stress it would cause.”

With a colleague, Karen approached the theatre manager and explained the situation, the legal case and how Rose’s involvement would be “completely inappropriate”, and that she wanted women involved in the operation.

Astonishingly the theatre manager said: “But Rose is a woman”.

She added that she thought Karen was being “prejudiced”.

She tried to explain that she was not singling Rose out, but that there was clearly a conflict of interest and because of her childhood trauma she wanted women involved in the procedure.

Regarding Rose being removed from the operating team, Karen was asked: “How do you think that would make Rose feel?”

She was given the choice of cancelling her surgery, trying to get it done at another hospital, or allowing Rose to be part of the operation. Any delays would prolong the pain she was in and had been for some time.

After putting her position in writing, the theatre manager wrote to her and said that her request could not be accommodated “due to clinical and staffing skill mix issues.”

With legal support and advice from the Christian Legal Centre, days before the operation, Karen went to the Patient Advisory and Liaison Service (PALS).

After outlining her situation, PALS swiftly made the decision that it was not appropriate for Rose to be involved.

Despite what the theatre manager had said, it appeared very possible to reallocate staff so that Rose was not involved in the operation.

“I believed this was purely vindictive and demonstrated how low they were prepared to go,” Karen said. “Gender identity was placed above patient and staff care. They tried to punish me for the legal case I was part of and for opposing gender identity policy within the hospital.”

This makes me fucking vomit.