Southport killer enabled by father

The inquiry has highlighted that the parents withheld information from Cahms -
they withheld his violent behaviour
Cahms discharged him citing no risk -
that’s on the parents
when the suppprt worker attended, the mother gestured at the father to not speak / not tell them what the son is like ..
how can services for accountable when they aren’t holding all the cards ??
the family were colluding and enabling his disturbing behaviour - and they should be held accountable for that

I looked up the church his parents went to, out of curiosity (I know that area a bit through family) and it really didn't have that vibe at all. It could have been my church, basically. You have to go well outside the mainstream of UK Christianity to find people who wouldn't do anything bar 'pray about it' in this situation, and I say that as someone who knows some quite conservative evangelical Christians coping with severe MH issues themselves or in their families.

But anyway, back to the actual issues.....I think the parents were themselves victims of horrible emotional and physical abuse. They were left to cope with someone who should have been in a secure institutional setting for his own wellbeing and for the safety of others. It annoys me seeing them used as punchbags. But I'm possibly sensitive having seen two different friends trying to cope with violent teens (both with autism, learning difficulties & a number of MH issues) and seeing how little support they got

Having now read accounts of the evidence given by the mother, I’m afraid I find it impossible to believe it is true.

How were her fingerprints found on the internal packaging of knives, if she had never opened their packaging? Why did her account of the bow and arrow deny that she had seen it, when her own husband claimed she had?

What are the penalties for lying to a public enquiry?

I love my sons. And if one of them was mentally disturbed, threatening, clearly seriously disordered, and buying knives, then yes, I would be reporting that fact to the police, CAMHS, social services, and my GP. And I would not stop reporting until my child was sectioned.

There is actually mental illness in my family and a family member has been sectioned in the past. I know how very very difficult it is to get help- but yes, these parents were grossly irresponsible and we should deplore them, even if failings in the law mean they cannot be punished for their inaction.

Violent in the extreme
Manufacturing ricin
obsessed with genocide and terrorism
obsessed with online death porn
Owned Al-Qaeda manual
watching Isis execution videos
Machete delivered to home
Seems everyone around him family and services were blind deaf and dumb

I agree. I have every sympathy with being afraid of AR, but there was zero reason why his father couldn’t have alerted the police ‘anonymously’ (ie asked them not to reveal it was him) The police could then have called round under the pretence of a follow up after the knife-carrying on the bus, or as a welfare check or anything plausible. They could then have ‘found’ the weapons.

More than that, at a meeting with a family support worker, AR’s mother actively stopped his father from revealing more information about AR. If that information had been revealed, then maybe AR wouldn’t have been signed off from CAMHs and maybe a Prevent referral would have been acted on.

So, both parents were to blame IMO. I believe the father thought AR would hurt him, but I don’t believe he thought he was the sole target. He said he warned AR’s brother not to wind him up, and he knew AR had tried to attack people at school. He also knew that AR was amassing a stash of weapons.

While I don’t think the parents were accessories, I do think they’re culpable in some way and should be charged with something.

This is a really insightful, and accurate post. I remember trying to explain to the school senco, the family worker and CAMHS how our then 5/6yo daughter was making us so scared in our own home that we'd put locks on our bedroom doors. How she'd literally drawn blood, thrown things, kicked, bitten, scratched, punched. The Southport case is exactly why we've fought so hard for our daughter to be well supported, and not taken no for an answer. It's why we've tried so hard to research and be amateur psychologists - because no help was coming unless we found it within us to do it ourselves.

What happened in this case saw a regular, smiling schoolboy of 12 turn into a murderous monster, seemingly over the space of one summer. We have to look at the reasons for that, and all parties bear responsibility for that.

I'm only thankful that we kept battling for our daughter's mental health and we were able to understand her and support her from an early enough stage of her life to prevent her from spiralling. But we still bear the scars.

The Southport murders is incredibly sad, for everyone. The photos of those little girls - so similar to my own - will stay with me forever. They didn't need to die.

There is clearly not a single cause

There are a combination of issues that occurred
Bad choices
Bad decisions

Well, the Bible verses I quoted, in response to a PP quoting another part of the Bible, say his father should have stoned him.

But I am an atheist, so I don't subscribe to that.

However, the reports of his parents on the stand coming across as very religious do perhaps have a bearing. Maybe the parents felt that prayer would cure his son, or that some God would intervene. That could account for some of their inaction. And perhaps the contradictions in the bible, combined with very religious parents, had a negative effect on the perp.

I do not think the parents should be prosecuted. I never said that. I said I would not be able to report my child. However, I would not be trying to pray the problems away.

I feel bad for the parents.

Blame the parents.
WW2 was the fault of Herr Hitler Snr.

This.

My dd was also mute with anxiety and therefore classed as ‘refusing to engage’

She seriously self harmed. Because she was 16 we weren’t allowed to go to children’s A and E which had a massive support programme for self harmed/suicide attempts. But only for 15 and under.

Adult A and E stitched her up. And kicked her out. Someone was meant to phone. No one did. She was 16 1/2. No support, no joined up records. Nothing.

16-18 is the twilight zone. Not an adult not a child. So no support.

Things that stand out for me from reading the news

Teenager excluded from school
What happened after that ?
Seems to have been no further education , training or integration ?

Teenager had not left the home for over a year
No exercise, no hobbies, no friends, no social interaction ?

Open access to the Internet & money

Recently, I have seen adverts on my phone suggesting people could volunteer to be a mentor to a young person

Nobody can predict the future

My thoughts are with the victims

It seems that the family had issues around what was right & what was wrong

@PrizedPickledPopcorn oh yes, that feeling of helplessness on realising that virtually anything in my home could be used as a weapon - broken crockery, mirrors, a table lamp - it felt utterly pointless hiding scissors and razors.

We're in a better place now - 3 months of privately funded CBT with an amazing woman who was prepared to take us on really helped turn things around. But it's a horrible position to be in, and it's all too easy to blame the parents when there is no handbook in these situations.

This is a fair comment especially if they thought the danger was in house.

I also think a lot of people have no idea what they would do in a situation until they are in it.

Agreed.

Many here wear their willing to accept/commit crimes for their child as a badge of honour.

Oh wow! I am so sorry to hear of this experience. It’s awful.

I mean:

”His son had not left the house between since March 2022 - the last time he did so had been to "stab someone", counsel for the inquiry, Nicholas Moss KC, says.
In a statement, Mr Rudakubana previously said his son had told him after he had prevented the taxi journey: "Next time if you stop me, there will be consequences."
When asked if he believed his son was thinking about launching another attack, Mr Rudakubana replied: "Not necessarily.
"I didn't see it that way that the next time he stepped out of the house he would be going to attack people.
"We took it [the 2022 attack] as a one-off episode.
"The things he was saying [were] not making any sense. We thought he had a mental breakdown."

You thought your (minor) son had a breakdown and you did nothing? I get it with adults - it’s harder to force an intervention on them when they don’t want it but this was a minor? Parents have a lot more sway.

This is also a rebuke to those who always insist any criminality in boys can be prevented by “present fathers”.

His father was in the house and was spectacularly useless. It seems like Rudakubana underwent a dramatic change in personality and demenour from quiet choir boy to a deranged obsessed with violence teen and his parents seem to not have done much about it.

@atmywitsend1989 @DropZoneOne I’m so sorry for all you are going through.

I had a really difficult primary aged child who I felt I couldn’t control, despite loads of reading books, trying methods etc.

Fortunately we were able to turn things around and at secondary age the meltdowns and rages stopped. However, while I remember the helplessness and the fear both for the future and for what would happen that day.

I had another who started to secrete knives in his room, and who had thrown furniture around and climbed onto the roof through a bathroom window.

The fear when you realised that he had ‘found something else’ that I hadn’t secured yet, and knowing there would always be yet another ‘something else’.

I have an inkling of what you are going through.

Point being the father shouldn't be prosecuted and half the people who say he should be would react with horror at a parent who did report their child to the police.
But none so blind as those that will not see.

Have you ever tried to get services involved? I have. My teen had severe mental health challenges, also autistic, dropped out of education. GP referral led to an 18 month wait list for 'therapeutic support'. By the time that came round, they had taken an overdose and referred to CAMHS. 6 months waiting for an assessment, by which time they were self harming. 6 months on from that and still no CAMHS intervention.

Meanwhile, we had referrals to Early Help from me, school and GP. LA said they couldn't help. It took a mental health nurse to get involved and say there was violence towards me from my child and I was at risk of carer exhaustion before additional services were involved. 6 months from that and me begging for help, emailing all services in a shared email saying I couldn't cope and I was genuinely scared for my child's safety, my safety and that of others before a social work assessment was done.

Even now, the "involvement" is a visit every 3 weeks from the social worker and a phone number for CAMHS duty (Mon - Fri 9am - 5pm, leave a message and you might get a call back after a week).

At one point, my child had intrusive thoughts about harming others. I relayed this to CAMHS who relayed it to another agency involved in preventing violence. After two weeks, it came back as "low risk" but I should always accompany my 17yo when they left the house (ignoring the fact i had a job outside the home), hide the household knives and anything else sharp (i locked them in the car boot overnight but not exactly practical during the day) and call the police if my child threatened or hit me.

I was ACTIVELY trying to get help, from all services, on multiple occasions. It is not easy. There isn't someone on hand 24/7 to give advice. You feel incredibly isolated, like no-one is really listening to you or trying to help.

I can totally understand how his parents were acting to protect themselves and their other son, believing the risk to be within the family and that they were attempting to manage autistic behaviour that challenges with limited support (here, attend this parenting course FFS).

I think the blame sits with all the professionals who let him down. His father must have been at his wits end.

Proving what point ? I was responding to a post that quoted a bible verse, the verse being about not judging.

I have just seen the sky news report on the mum at the inquiry. She comes across as being very religious.

The Bible is very violent. I genuinely wonder how it affects some folk.

It would have been difficult for the police to do anything anyway in truth. How many times are actual crimes committed that the police don’t pursue due to lack of evidence. I was stalked by an ex for months, he assaulted me in broad daylight but the police didn’t pursue it because it was my word against his… If his Dad had approached the police at any stage and said “I think my son is going to do x and y”, would they have done anything substantial to stop him?

As others have mentioned, he was under the care of CAMHS so he was on their radar. It isn’t as though his dad just ignored the situation and hoped it would go away. Sad story but I don’t think it’s fair to blame his parents.

Neither of which put the father into the frame so rather proving the point.

No he shouldn’t be charged. He prevented him setting the school on fire, but clearly was too afraid to report him to the police. I’m sure it he had been aware of the lengths he would go to he would have reported him. He should have reported him when he knew he was ordering knife’s and machetes and refused to have him home. But reporting your own DC is not as easy as people think and it’s clear his family were terrified of him. Prosecuting his father isn’t the right path to take imo.