To think women have double standards

Indeed but just so we're clear for that poster - a 7ft foot tall gay rugby player would be able to physically overpower you and do what he wanted to you. That's what it's like for women - men are stronger than us and can use this to overpower us and do what they want if they choose. That's why when men are being loud and lairy and talking about our tits, it's fucking scary because we don't know if they'll stick to talking or decide they fancy taking a look and a feel and then.....

the difference is: if a bunch of men did this, you would never say "all men do this" because, "not all men"

but the minute a woman, or some women, behave badly or whatever it is "all women" and nobody bats an eyelid.

So there's the double standard you're looking for. Some people are arseholes their sex generally isn't the only factor in that

I am not sure how much simpler I can make it. Men, as a group, have a documented history of abusing women. This is possible due to their superior size and strength. In the absence of a sub-pocket of women who are simultaneously unattractive to you while being sufficiently bigger and stronger than you to have the potential to enforce action upon you - I ask you to picture a much bigger stronger man

Yeah men who whine about things like this are usually dismissive of the reality of the existing power dynamics and systemic inequalities that oppress and harm women.

Instead of spending their energy on calling actual men out for the real ongoing damage they do to women on a daily basis, they’d rather try and get on their high horse about a group of women on a train sleazing over a man. So that they can pretend we are all as bad as each other and “women are just as bad”.

When it’s women who are being terrorised by men all over the world. They all know that, things like this are just a feeble attempt to deflect and wear their victim hat.

I don’t engage in the behaviour of those women on the train myself, but to use that to argue that “it’s not fair - men can’t do it” and that’s “double standards” etc is nonsense for so many reasons which pp have outlined.

@Scottishlass10 you are very lucky then. I have to say in the day time I feel more care free but at night I would worry about walking alone (I even fret about getting into a taxi alone), I also have a DD20 and the worry I have for her (that I do not project), is high.

i have given my DDs advice on what to do to feel and be as safe as possible, my eldest and her house mates have rape alarms.

so yes if you have gone through life not afraid or putting in provisions to be as safe as possible then you are very lucky indeed.

I’m not surprised that a man is completely baffled by the relevance of a person finding you physically attractive being physically imposing.
It’s crazy you’ve spent so much time on a women’s forum yet still have zero empathy for women.

Urgh, quite honestly, the more you post OP the more it sounds like your husband is disappointed that he can no longer objectify women. He sounds like the kind of dinosaur who yearns for the "good old days" when you could pinch women's bums at work or make crude "carry on" comments about the size of his female coworkers breasts and have a good laugh about it.

Now he is whining that it's not faaaair that the tables have turned. Yuck.

@5128gap A man hearing a woman comment about him sexually will probably view it as no more than an option, I can have sex with her if I want, or not if I don't.

Most single men would have sex with the overwhelming majority of women, if the option presented itself. That's also key; the fact that most men would consent to most sexual activity.

@DryIce Yes this is my point, your context is getting a compliment from someone you are sexually attracted to. When you're being objectifed you do not usually get a choice as to who is doing the objectifying.

I would still be happy with that compliment even if it came from, hypothetically, a woman that was unattractive, because I wouldn't find it disgusting or unwelcome for any woman to find me attractive.

I am really confused about the inclusion of height and build regarding the rugby player though. What's that about? The height and build of a gay man is irrelevant. I would still be disgusted if a tiny 5' skinny gay man said he found me attractive. That's because as a heterosexual man, I am disgusted by all other men.

There are double standards for different genders, sexuality, age, race etc.

But in this case it is a double standard, but then again reddit is full of men saying catcalling is a compliment and they would love it. So not sure it is comparable

That pretty much reflects how I imagine the difference in perception of behaviour from men and women would look, and also the opinions of other men ive heard on the subject.
A man hearing a woman comment about him sexually will probably view it as no more than an option, I can have sex with her if I want, or not if I don't. He has also as you rightly point out, unlikely to have the experience of his appearance being the most important and commented on thing about him.
He knows the world doesn't view him as merely a sex object so the occasional 'objectification', provided it flatters him is not going to threaten his place in the world or contribute to a sense he is lesser, good for one thing only etc.

Exactly. It’s ridiculous and yeah based on a very specific fantasy no doubt.

Correct.

Yes this is my point, your context is getting a compliment from someone you are sexually attracted to. When you're being objectifed you do not usually get a choice as to who is doing the objectifying.

But imagine it was someone you weren't attracted to. And they weren't taking a hint and leaving it. And they were getting increasingly aggressive. And there were of a class known for it's intimation/abuse of your class. And there was a significant size differential.

@DryIce Would they still desire objectification if the objectifier in question was a 7' tall, gay, aggressive rugby player?

No idea what point you are trying to make here.

Heterosexual men aren't attracted to gay men. So of course that compliment would not be welcome.

Heterosexual men are attracted to women, so they appreciate objectification from women.

^ absolutely this.

You clearly have t heard a bunch of men discussing women…

@5128gap As long as women are talking about men being hot and how they would want sex with them, men wouldn't see this in the same light a woman would if men were talking that way about her. What men don't like is being laughed at for being ugly, short, having a small penis etc (understandably) because it upsets and offends. However if they're being spoken of as a desirable sex object, they're flattered and fine and not remotely intimidated, disempowered or feeling like prey?

Of course. I would be flattered if someone (sincerely) though I was handsome or attractive.

I agree that the dynamics are different with men and women. The reason why men generally don't have an issue with being found attractive is, if a woman did try to initiate something, the man would usually consent. It goes without saying that that wouldn't be true the other way round.

I'm conscious also that most women have likely been called beautiful many times, which is why a compliment about their appearance is generally not welcome. And then, this is the reason why men are confused when they discover that women don't appreciate comments about their appearance; because men would be happy if they were complimented on their appearance, so they assume a woman would appreciate the same compliment.

It’s a group of people, probably fuelled by alcohol, having a discussion among themselves. Is it necessarily PC? Probably not. But who is going to call them out for
it? Just like men have mysogynistic, sexist discussions between themselves all the time. Unlikely anyone will pull them up for it. It’s unsavoury yes but unless it’s directly harming a woman no one is going to care much. It probably is a double standard but who cares? Neither group is being held accountable.
It would a problem if someone was being directly harmed. Or if conversations like this were happening in the media- women talking in a derogatory sexist way about men and not being punished. But a silly conversation on a train? No.

😀👍

Yes this always makes my eyes roll. Note they are always picturing a hot woman objectifying them.

Would they still desire objectification if the objectifier in question was a 7' tall, gay, aggressive rugby player?

Exactly. Ive seen this a million times over and not once in 25 years or so have I ever seen a man in the vicinity step up and tell them the way they are talking about women is gross. Not once.

In fact, when you have a bunch of drunken, rowdy, lairy blokes together talking in this vile way about women, even other men seem scared to say anything for fear of being verbally assaulted themselves.

That says it all doesnt it?- even their own gender wont tell them off for fear of repercussions. Imagine then, how hard it is for women. 🙄

Women can talk about men in sexualised / vulgar ways. I don't like it, i think it's gross.

But it's never as bad as when men do it, men go on to actually treat women as sex objects, their jokes often have an underlying theme of how much they can degrade a woman, what they managed to get them to agree too, what manipulation tactics they used to get their way or can go onto assault women to get their way. Not saying women never do this, but this is ultimately 'lad' culture.

The difference is there is and always will be a power imbalance between men and women simply because the vast majority of men “could” overpower and physically harm the majority of women. Therefore misogyny accepted in society puts women in danger. While those women may have been saying things that were horrible and unacceptable it’s very unlikely that any of them could harm men. A group of men saying the same things and being egged on and encouraging by their peers could easily become violent and abusive because their beliefs are encouraged by those around them.

however i don’t believe that women have a double standard in general. Some women will say horrible things, some men will say horrible things. Most women I know don’t speak about men in that way.

Exactly. Men talk like this all the time and people typically don’t intervene.

I literally avoid taking the last train on a Friday or Saturday night as I don’t want to be sat next to a group of drunk men talking in a sleazy manner about the women they’ve met or saw earlier that night - or even making comments directly to you /other women that catch their eyes.