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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To not agree to pretend to my company that I don’t know what a man or woman is?

142 replies

Grain25 · 31/10/2025 16:08

My company has held a big team meeting this afternoon to bollock us because we haven’t been following their guidance that in our notes we refer to everyone as ‘they’ and ‘them’ unless we’ve explicitly asked if they identify as a man or woman and what their pronouns are.

It is grammatically and logically ridiculous.

They want me to pretend I don’t know if a male voice with the name Michael is a man and a female voice named Susan is a woman. They want no he/she in the notes unless we confirm with the aforementioned Michael and Susan that they are indeed a man and woman, which would make me look quite mad.

They have tried to conflate it with not assuming a married Michael is married to a woman, and that Susan is married to a man. This is completely right and proper and I hope I wouldn’t assume this.

AIBU to simply not change my notes?

OP posts:
ChocolateMagnum · 02/11/2025 13:52

Dear X
I have recently read a document in which I have been referred to using the pronouns 'they' and 'them'. I find this highly offensive as a woman who is a single entity and I would like to make a formal complaint to ensure this issue is addressed.
Kind regards

JHound · 02/11/2025 13:52

Grain25 · 02/11/2025 13:40

Notes about the conversations I have with people accessing the service.

I assume these must be captured in a system then? For a minute I thought you meant private notes and thought it would be easy to ignore the directive

SprayWhiteDung · 02/11/2025 13:47

ChocolateMagnum · 02/11/2025 13:41

We really need a whole bunch of people making complaints that they've been referred to as they/them when that's not their chosen pronouns!

I agree. It's deliberately engineering a hierarchy in which people who use non-biological pronouns are important, but nobody else (the vast majority) is.

Apart from that, many trans/nb/other people who go by 'they' seem to like marking themselves out as 'different from the norm'. It could be argued that, if everybody is a 'they' as a norm, how are those people actually respected as being supposedly different?!

ELMhouse · 02/11/2025 13:46

ChocolateMagnum · 02/11/2025 13:41

We really need a whole bunch of people making complaints that they've been referred to as they/them when that's not their chosen pronouns!

I actually agree with you here! I hate being referred to as they/them and I refuse to put a pronoun on my email!

ELMhouse · 02/11/2025 13:45

Stillreadingalot · 31/10/2025 17:45

I agree with you but wanted to point out that the actress who played the mother in The Waltons was called Michael - she was credited as Miss Michael Learned. So not all Michaels are men.

I also did encounter a "Steve" who I assumed would be a man but was actually a woman.

my close friends are Sam, Jamie, Chris, Alex and James (I know James for a women is quite rare) - all women. Although TBF only one of them has a deepish voice and could possibly be confused (as they have been a few times) on the phone as a man (which they actually find amusing!)

ChocolateMagnum · 02/11/2025 13:41

We really need a whole bunch of people making complaints that they've been referred to as they/them when that's not their chosen pronouns!

Grain25 · 02/11/2025 13:40

JHound · 02/11/2025 13:31

You referred to what you write in your notes. I was wondering what you mean by that?

Notes about the conversations I have with people accessing the service.

OP posts:
Throwntothewolves · 02/11/2025 13:31

I'd be offended if someone asked me if I'm a woman. I have an unmistakably female name, speak and look like a woman. Anyone would be correct in assuming that of me. Someone asking me to confirm that I'm a woman would suggest to me that they think I'm a man. How can that be considered OK?

JHound · 02/11/2025 13:31

Grain25 · 02/11/2025 13:27

Sorry, what do you mean?

You referred to what you write in your notes. I was wondering what you mean by that?

Grain25 · 02/11/2025 13:27

JHound · 02/11/2025 13:13

What notes are they accessing of yours?

Sorry, what do you mean?

OP posts:
SprayWhiteDung · 02/11/2025 13:27

RessicaJabbit · 01/11/2025 18:28

Yes but... I don't identify as "they" so you're misgendering me by using it...

Yes, this 100%. If it's supposed to be wrong to call a known person with an obvious sex he or she on the grounds that that person might be a they, why is it OK to wrongly assume and call the vast majority of people - who are almost certainly going to be a he or a she - 'they'?

PermanentTemporary · 02/11/2025 13:24

@ThankYouNigel theres evidence suggesting that women emphasising our sex at work means that people take what we do less seriously. That would be one of my arguments against requiring people to put their specific pronouns in their email signature.

Using neutral pronouns for people is a different argument and in some ways the opposite - it’s removing sex from the picture in settings where it doesn’t matter. That to me is perfectly reasonable. I’d much rather do that than participate in pronoun rounds at meetings or whatever.

SprayWhiteDung · 02/11/2025 13:24

Stillreadingalot · 31/10/2025 17:45

I agree with you but wanted to point out that the actress who played the mother in The Waltons was called Michael - she was credited as Miss Michael Learned. So not all Michaels are men.

I also did encounter a "Steve" who I assumed would be a man but was actually a woman.

Did you still have to ask Steve what sex Steve was once you saw and heard Steve?!

OP carefully specified when the name AND the voice both clearly match one sex or the other. One of The Bangles is called Michael, but she certainly doesn't sound like a bloke.

justalittlebitofrain · 02/11/2025 13:16

Just do what you like. If it’s a call centre job, which it sounds like it is, they aren’t going to pull you up on it.

JHound · 02/11/2025 13:13

What notes are they accessing of yours?

Brefugee · 02/11/2025 13:11

You are looking for another job anyway, so where is the issue in wasting everyone's time by following the company instructions to the letter. Malicious compliance.

If you weren't looking for another job i'd suggest just carrying on and seeing what happens, but since you are - just follow their instructions to the letter and if you are pulled up on your production slipping, point out how much longer everything takes when you have to police your own language.

Grain25 · 02/11/2025 13:07

Brefugee · 02/11/2025 13:03

so... take a day and contact everyone you have contact with and ask them? This is the company line, so if you spend time doing that, it's not an issue surely? If you all do this, they will be paying you to literally twiddle your thumbs.

I speak to numerous members of the public every day. I work for a charity, and the people I speak to are vulnerable and seeking help. They’re not bothered about pronouns.

OP posts:
Grain25 · 02/11/2025 13:06

DrinkFeckArseBrick · 01/11/2025 22:31

Fine when you're working with a Susan or a Michael. I work with global teams and I'm really not that familiar enough with their cultures to know whether their names are commonly male or female. Much easier to use a neutral description. Also there are plenty of names that used to be male but are now more commonly female even in the same culture. I don't think personally ita a big deal to not bring sex into consideration in the workplace. I realise I am likely in the minority here, but I'd rather that people who haven't met me have no pre conceived ideas about me, I'm fine with not pointing out I'm a woman at work.

If you genuinely don’t know the sex of a person of course gender neutral terms are fine.

But when Tom Smith is ringing because he’s been laid off as a scaffolder and speaking with a deep male voice I’m not going to ask if he prefers he or she, or pretend I don’t know he’s a man. He’d think I was barking mad and rightly so.

OP posts:
Brefugee · 02/11/2025 13:03

so... take a day and contact everyone you have contact with and ask them? This is the company line, so if you spend time doing that, it's not an issue surely? If you all do this, they will be paying you to literally twiddle your thumbs.

Grain25 · 02/11/2025 13:00

ScaryM0nster · 01/11/2025 18:55

And yet, as someone with chronic sinusitis I’ve been pretty frequently misgendered / named but people who failed to distinguish between raspy and male. So while you may have superior powers of perception, those powers aren’t universal. Hence why the guidance exists.

Do these people know your name?

OP posts:
ThankYouNigel · 01/11/2025 22:46

DrinkFeckArseBrick · 01/11/2025 22:31

Fine when you're working with a Susan or a Michael. I work with global teams and I'm really not that familiar enough with their cultures to know whether their names are commonly male or female. Much easier to use a neutral description. Also there are plenty of names that used to be male but are now more commonly female even in the same culture. I don't think personally ita a big deal to not bring sex into consideration in the workplace. I realise I am likely in the minority here, but I'd rather that people who haven't met me have no pre conceived ideas about me, I'm fine with not pointing out I'm a woman at work.

Why shouldn’t you point out you are a ‘women at work’? You have every right to be a woman at work, and be proud of it. If others have negative, preconceived ideas about you then they are in the wrong, not you. Why, oh why do women feel they need to hide their sex at work in 2025? Do not let anyone erase you as a woman!

Crazycatladywithnocats · 01/11/2025 22:46

If I’m ever forced to put my pronouns on my email signatory, I’d feel like being bloody-minded and use it/its or even he/him.

DrinkFeckArseBrick · 01/11/2025 22:31

Fine when you're working with a Susan or a Michael. I work with global teams and I'm really not that familiar enough with their cultures to know whether their names are commonly male or female. Much easier to use a neutral description. Also there are plenty of names that used to be male but are now more commonly female even in the same culture. I don't think personally ita a big deal to not bring sex into consideration in the workplace. I realise I am likely in the minority here, but I'd rather that people who haven't met me have no pre conceived ideas about me, I'm fine with not pointing out I'm a woman at work.

ThankYouNigel · 01/11/2025 22:19

paulhollywoodshairgel · 01/11/2025 22:10

Absolutely bonkers. I’m still in a battle at my work as I refuse to put my pronouns in my e mail signature.

Good for you for standing your ground. You shouldn’t have to, this cannot be imposed on people. There are many valid reasons why not:

  • For me, if I put pronouns, one might assume I am a biological man who wants to be known as a woman. I am a biological woman, so absolutely no need to put she/her, it is obvious! 🤦🏻‍♀️
  • It is comparable to having to publicly declare your age/marital status/whether you have children/political views/religious views etc. Some people generally prefer high privacy, especially at work.
  • It can fundamentally clash with a person’s religious views (which are a protected characteristic under the Equality Act).
  • Gender ideology is an opinion not a fact.
  • The onus should be on the minority doing something different to indicate they are, not on everybody else. It’s about taking personal responsibility.
  • What if I am a person who does want to change my pronouns but wants to share that when I am ready and in my own time? Publicly stating them could be harmful for somebody who is experiencing confusion/distress about their own identity. We are not forced to publicly state our sexuality at work, nor should we be. It is ultimately nobody else’s business, nor relevant at work.
paulhollywoodshairgel · 01/11/2025 22:10

Absolutely bonkers. I’m still in a battle at my work as I refuse to put my pronouns in my e mail signature.

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