Feminism sold a lie - Women, today, are worse off than ever

Totally agree. I really hope that the OP comes back to read it.

@MidnightMeltdown
A woman who depends on a man for money will never be his equal, and he will never see her as an equal (regardless of what he might say!
How about a man depending on a woman for childcare and keeping a home? A couple is about team work. My DH and I depend on each other. He couldn't work in the job he loves which includes periods of absences if I was not a sahm to our dc (one autistic who needs 1:1). We are both happy with our roles and consider each other as equals but to you I am not equal to him? He's maybe more feminist than what you are.

Brilliant post
I second that.

I am not lucky at all as I'm much worse off than my ancestors and have no choice whatsoever but to work till I die.

I agree with PP who say it's down to capitalism but I also think capitalism utilised feminism as an ideology to force women into work with no real choice, just to exploit all potentially available workforce, as in the case of @PomegranateVase . Women were brainwashed into the absolutely unrealistic idea of "having it all" when in reality we can't have it all as childbearing is very taxing on women's health, time and energy levels.

@GarlicHound

Brilliant post x

Time and again, I marvel at the strange passivity in threads like this - here and elsewhere. It goes hand in hand with "Feminism failed us", "Feminism sold us a lie", etc. It feels like Feminism is/was an institution, a political party or similar - as though there was a group of influential women directing national and global policy. Sometimes it even feels like women see Feminism as a fairy godmother who came up short on ballgowns and charming princes!

There never has been such an institution. Feminism's a grassroots movement. As is usual with grassroots movements, feminism's every gain is made against fearsome opposition. It's a lot like Black Americans saying "Civil Rights failed us!" Every single step towards real freedom and equality is a step taken by crowds fighting together against a far more powerful enemy.

That enemy constantly strives to reverse those gains, to put himself back in the position of absolute power. Women, like Black Americans and gay people, need to keep reasserting our rights or we will lose them. We (you) need to keep organising, campaigning and fighting for the many freedoms and opportunities we still lack.

Men are slow to step up but the enemy is not "men" as such. It's patriarchy - another amorphous movement, but this one has millennia of consolidated power behind it. Patriarchy never lets its guard down: when women make progress, patriarchy pushes back.

The opposite of patriarchy isn't matriarchy - that's a different system altogether. The opposite of patriarchy is feminism. Would you really choose oppression over freedom?

The strange passivity I'm hearing comes from Fairy Godmother Syndrome™, as if Feminism had promised millennial women a life of affluent bliss, all mod cons and a devoted husband surrounding her charmed life of rewarding career seamlessly blended with even more rewarding children and a fulfilling social life. Did it?

Did you read a Feminist Party manifesto setting this before you? Did you and many others vote the party into power, only to be disappointed by this Feminist Government's failure to deliver the bliss? That never happened - because there's never been a feminist government. Never. Isn't that shocking?

What feminism said to you was more like "Millennial women, we're delighted to tell you that you've got it better than any generation of women in recorded history. Make the most of it, enjoy it, but don't stop fighting. The war's a long way from over yet and those patriarchs are coming for you. Be warned, they fight dirty. Here, take our swords. Go forth!"

So, yeah, go forth. Win some more steps, for your daughters.

Feminism gave us choices and control over our own lives - it did not promise it would be easy. With rights come responsibilities.

Sure, I expect in the past there were women content in the gilded cage of traditional marriage. But many more were abused, frustrated and deeply deeply unhappy. Further more anyone who dropped out of this cage or failed to even make it in to one were routinely cast out of society, discriminated against and had very very hard lives.

Does that sound "easier" or "better".

Whilst your post may be true to you and your friends OP, it's just an opinion.

If you're blaming feminism for the fact you have to work because men are poorer, that's a you problem.

I feel second hand embarrassment as a woman, that you think feminism is a bad thing.

@Ubertomusic There were some limited property rights for women pre 20th Century - ironically they were often better if you weren't married or were windowed. Things improved with the Married Women's Property Act in the late nineteenth century. But for a lot of history anything a woman owned would become property of her husband upon marriage, including her children.

As many others have pointed out in reality a woman's rights and quality of life was totally dictated by the attitude and whims of her husband (or father/brother if not married).

Well lucky you. My female ancestors were domestic servants or factory workers until they married. My maternal grandmother died of TB in slum housing, the rest of the family were eventually rehoused in one of the earliest council houses. I doubt any of them owned anything much.

I have more freedoms as a woman in Britain today than any of my ancestors. I’m pretty happy about that tbh.

How am I worse off? I have an education, I own property and have a pension, I work in a fulfilling career and have my own money, I have access to medical care and free contraception. Society and the law respects my choice not marry or have children. I have a loving and equal relationship with my DP but have the financial independence to walk away any time that I need or want to and the law will support me.

Yes I still have to clean my house and get up and go to work on a dark morning, yes my DP pissed me off this morning as he forgot to wash his mug before he left for work so I did it, but honestly - life is so much better for Western women now that at any other time in human history.

Speak for your ancestors and leave mine alone.

In the 19th century, mine didn't live in the feudal state like yours. My GGM ran a business alongside her husband. Another GGM owned land. Women in Europe ran businesses alone and even travelled for business and trade since as early as the 17h century. It is well documented. Read the memoirs of Glueckel of Hameln for example, it's a very easy read.

But you have convinced me that yours were in feudal servitude until 40-50 years ago 😁 As everyone else's on this thread, it seems 🤔

WE have bank accounts, rights to property, proper childcare provisions. and I don't have to rely on pocket money from men to cover household costs with no power if he decided to piss his pay-packet away at the pub or gambling.

We have to option to be self sufficient and reliant and lead full and safe lives wether partnered or not. I have no desire to live the life of either of my grandmothers thanks. with limited options to work like taking in ironing while watching 5 children.

https://katethompsonauthor.substack.com/p/how-the-worlds-first-womens-refuge?r=1ro8m2&utm_campaign=post&utm_medium=web&fbclid=IwY2xjawNuvoxleHRuA2FlbQIxMQABHrh6oJqmDpplbY6jG21cBVD-i16ajHf9tRLal9OPYzrteYGnDs2eiTiVkSpX_aem_gFpOwTNFK2HptLAB631LiQ&triedRedirect=true

Coincidentally this article came up on my Facebook feed after my first attempt at reading this thread, and after initially thinking FFS with a sense of weariness that comes from feeling obsolete in my 50s due to a series of unfortunate events, I decided to come back.

Very heartening to see previous posters pointing out that the lie is capitalism / neoliberalism, which is from observation one of the biggest pyramid schemes dressed up as meritocracy going, due to inbuilt systemic bias in as many areas as can it afford to enhance the wealth of those gaining the rewards of it.

Feminism is a word that is shorthand to explain the movement to afford women equal rights to men. It is derived from feminine to immediately signify that. You couldn't call it peoplism or humanism - the latter exists and is something in and of itself. Like all "labels" it has been bastardised, has evolved, and its meaning has been used to signify other issues, with much complexity and nuance overlooked. It's now a handy catch all when men and women are casting about for something to blame for the parlous state of the modern world, and takes us full circle back to "Adam good, led astray by bad Eve".

Capitalism has "worked" for as long as it has, theoretically because the game is rigged.

As others have pointed out, feminism was supposed to raise women as a class - and children of both sexes - from the status of chattels and property, as per the "Biblical" model, and a whole load of guff from "learned men" that used pseudoscience to demean women, their intellect, and give them unfettered access to their bodies.

We're seeing a resurgence of this vile rhetoric with the likes of Andrew Tate at one end (easy to dismiss his rhetoric unless you're a man who feels disadvantaged and is in a certain demographic) and Jordan Peterson at the other, who I frankly think is far more dangerous with his cobbling together of psychology, religion and air of martyrdom using big words and appealing to those with more brain cells. Friends of mine I have known for years and are incredibly intelligent and successful are also Libertarians, and are now dismissing the notion of structural disadvantages to women that still exist, even if there's window dressing to pretend they don't.

This is what I think is dangerous, as the trad wife thing goes viral, reproductive rights need "discussion", right wing Christian Nationalism is on the rise etc etc. And you've got the heady mix of true believers and grifters with pound signs in their eyes plus the technological means to spread any divisive nonsense at high speed to anyone at any time.

But back to this article.

OP this is what "Feminism" embodies for me. Women working collectively to help other women and children and protect them from male violence and subjugation because patriarchal power structures dismissed them as collateral damage.

And if you think we aren't regressing, you must be blind. First culprits are capitalism, neoliberalism and nationalism, with "religion" bringing up the rear. Blame Feminism/ women, and i can guarantee you won't enjoy the Gilead adjacent consequences.

Let me tell you about my nan who was a 50s woman.

My nan didnt get an education beyond 11, she fell pregnant out of wedlock and was forced to marry my grandad as that was shameful, he worked hard in a working clsss job, she worked hard in a different working class job, doing early mornings, nights, saturday etc. She couldn't get contraception without his permission there was no such thing as marital rape, she had 8 full term pregnancies, but not all the children survived. Maternity leave wasnt really a thing. She cooked, cleaned, childcare was an old lady down the road watching and older chikdren watching, children got injured. She was a victim of domestic violence as she had no economic means to get herself out of the situation. She couldn't get credit until 1975 Im not sure she could even have a bank account without her husbands say so. My grandad wasnt even a bad man by local standards. He did a lot around the house like washing up or making her eggs on toast for when she got back from work. They didnt own a house on one income, they had a council house and often struggled for food and clothes despite 2 incomes.

So no, I dont feel at all like I would like to go back to that. I love my education, I love my easy well paid office work with sociable hours. I love my bodily autonomy, I love I can have bank accounts, I love maternity leave, I love good quality childcare.

I know some women are still having shit lives and feel they work too hard with no support, but I dont think me also having these things removed would help them.

this is such hogwash its embarrassing.

I think as pp have said this is capitalism and economics not feminism.

are you and your DH/partner if you have one equal partners? You do sound burnt out by life.

on the flip side to you, I work full time as does my husband we have three DC and I do not feel like you feel at all as we share all household tasks, bills and childcare tasks and pick up the slack when one is feeling tired or works late or goes out.

we have family time, date nights, one on one time with the children. A couple of holidays a year.

compared to my parents and grandparents our life is fulfilled and fantastic.

there will always be women (and men) knackered and burnt out as you describe but this isn’t something that’s new.

feminism creates opportunities that our predecessors never had. I’m sure you have your own money/bank account, are on house deeds/have a mortgage, these are just some of the examples that you previously wouldn’t have had and that’s thanks to women who fought for our rights.
lets not take away from them that the fight they fought wasn’t beneficial as it 100% was!

Absolutely this.

Not everyone aspired to owning their own home in the 50s, 60s and 70s. Thatcher brought in that idea and got rid of so much council housing. Two cars - my parents only had one as my Mum, like most women then, didn't drive.

I will say that the supposed sexual freedom of the 60s and 70s ultimately benefitted men more.

Was born in 1955 and I'd say be careful what you wish for.

You can ask for a female nurse or dr but if you live in the UK you can't guarantee that you won't get a man with special feelings because the NHS records their gender self-identity not their sex look at the Sandie Peggie case against NHS Fife where a male dr (no GRC) is recorded by the GMC as female and stated under oath in court that he would treat a female patient who requested a female dr because he considered himself female and this is acceptable to the NHS

The one constant is that it all depends on the man you marry/have kids with. The difference is , that if things go tits up, at least now you have options. You can at least try and make it on your own. You are allowed to buy a house/rent on your own. You are allowed a credit card. You are allowed to work. You are allowed benefits. You are allowed to keep your children. You are allowed to press charges for DV or rape. You are allowed to leave/divorce. You are allowed contraception.More importantly, you are allowed to never marry/have kids in the first place.

A good man in the 50’s would’ve made for a good life. A good man now, would still make for a good life. An abusive /selfish/drunk man in the 50’s would’ve made make your life hell. An abusive/selfish/drunk man now would still make life hell , but we have options.

You speak with the privilege of someone already born with all the rights in place , who never had to fight for them. It’s frankly embarrassing at your age. I’m a millennial too.

I don’t disagree with a lot of what the OP has said.

However, one big additional choice women now have is to remain unmarried and/or not be mothers.

I understand that with the cost of living crisis that being a single income household might not be a viable option for all. But its a socially acceptable option for women now - which it just wasn’t in the past.

This is a huge leap forward in my eyes. Now women genuinely have the ability to choose the lifestyle that works best for them - just as men always have done. Part of this is due to shifts in economic power - but also in society’s attitudes.

Again I’m not getting into any conversation about transgender for me and my ideology this is a non-issue. I know I’m in the minority on Mumsnet but I won’t get into any debate regarding single sex changing rooms and toilets. As I say and you’ve said probably in my sheltered life, this doesn’t affect anyone that I know especially not in schools. And where it has affected me, it doesn’t pose a risk or issue for me. However, I have very different opinions to you on mixed sex toilets and changing rooms and therefore won’t debate trans men or women or their rights and what is the perceived effect on cis women.

As I mentioned, I would argue that we do not have the same thoughts and experiences on this.

The incidents you’ve described are still not the norm. The bin kicking not acceptable but again not normal. In my personal experience of women and young people is they ‘own’ their period they ‘own’ how they speak about them they ‘own’ how men and boys behave in regards to periods. And the young men and adult men that I know, for them it’s a part of life, it’s a part of knowing and loving women and again non-issue.

Of course, for all my thoughts and experiences there will obviously be examples as you stressed which show the opposite of this. I can only give an opinion on my experience of being a woman born in the 80s and having daughters, nieces and nephews.

Women have always had to work unless they were well off but we also had little to no rights when it came to financially protecting ourselves. We forget so easy that it was on 31 years ago it became a criminal offence to rape your wife.
And I absolutely agree the last few years have shown how fragile the gains are and how much we cannot rely on some women to defend them and how much some men hate women.