Feminism sold a lie - Women, today, are worse off than ever

I personally don’t think it’s helpful or progressive to keep comparing to the past though. Just because we have it better in some ways than the past, doesn’t mean we can’t still continue to work on improving it!

Fair enough. I wasn't actually suggesting that millennial women are all unaware of what feminism has done for us, I was merely making the point that millennial women weren't the first generation to juggle motherhood with their careers.

I actually have no idea which generation is buying into the whole tradwife thing - my dd is Gen Z and finds it depressing -but it was the OP who initially referred to millennials, so people will inevitably respond to that.

I'd agree many things are still so crap for women and in some aspects I believe women were sold a lie but the problem is capitalism not feminists.

As someone pointed out to me once on Mumsnet, it is really ignorant to not appreciate how much better women have it in the UK than they did in the past. Let's face it, in the 1950s you could be raped by your husband and it was legal, you wouldn't be able to obtain a safe abortion if you needed to, if you were an unmarried mother you could be sent to a mother and baby home and have your child taken away from you, if you were beaten by your husband there was almost no protection, many career options were pretty much taken off the table for you and if you did make a major career breakthrough (particularly in a STEM field) a man would take all the credit. Oh, and the unhappy housewives of the 1950s were just given shit loads of valium to stop their unhappiness inconveniencing anyone else.

Let’s not lump millennial women here. I definitely don’t see this in my circles.

Most of us grew up with working parents, and it definitely was a time where feminism was discussed, Me-Too movement, rape culture, etc. Heck, most of those I know have children in secondary school and a handful that do have babies and small children, it’s not their first or they waited until their 30s to have children and the rest didn’t want children at all. Definitely remember being warned before I had children that childcare cost were going to be expensive. It was no secret to most of us especially with the tv shows and movies showing how hard and difficult it was being a mother especially a single mother.

It’s only the last few years where I’ve seen what OP is describing due to the ‘trad wife’ trend , and it has been with Gen Z. Saying that, I notice that some cannot differentiate between Millennials and Gen Z.

The youngest millennials are 29.

There is nothing amazing about a man who picks up his equal share of the domestic load. It should be the bare minimum.

Is it really true that most women will be doing it all? This doesn't really apply to many of the relationships that I'm familiar with. I accept that "doing it all" is the reality for some women, but I really think we need to challenge the assumption that this is just the norm. It isn't, and it doesn't have to be.

If you're in a relationship with someone who doesn't pull their weight, then why not do something about it?

And isn’t it amazing that they have that choice ? Which wouldn’t have been the case in the years gone by.

I think we needed to be realistic. 'Society' is highly unlikely to ever value caring for your own home and raising any children you choose to have in the same way as a paid role that has a wider impact outside of your own comfort and that of your family.
Some feminists tried to attach a value to it, framing it as work women should be paid for, but it never really took off.
So instead the approach was to work on getting women access to the roles that are valued. The ones that have influence, where their voices are heard and they contribute to important decisions. The ones that pay them so their livelihood and quality of life doesn't depend on the whims of a man and how generous he decides to be.
If you feel this wasn't right and the work should have gone into persuading society a SAH women is a positive thing to be valued and encouraged, then the floor is yours. Start a campaign, as women before you have done for the things they thought would better women's lives.

Feminism was about giving women choices. It (to a large extent) helped give women the CHANCE to work if they wanted to.

Neo-liberal capitalism, designed to enrich the rich at the expense of the many, is what has lead to a situation where two incomes are needed to run a household, therefore neo-liberalism has FORCED women into the workplace. Nothing to do with feminism.

Was feminism "asking for it" when it demanded women's rights? Was it inevitable that feminism had to be for the benefit of men as well as women? Is it therefore the case that women trying to get rights would inevitably lead to men demanding those rights, leaving women worse off than they were before? If so should we blame feminists feminism for that or men?

Did feminists really tell women that they could have it all? Or was that privileged rich celebrity women who were lying for status (and maybe claiming to be feminists at the same time)?

100% with you @ConservativeC2

Someone said on a similar thread the other week, 'women aren't having it all, they're DOING it all.' (Sorry if this has been said on here, haven't read all 500+ replies.)

'Women have soooo many choices and a much better life than women had some 2-3 generations ago,' some say. Is that true? In many ways no. The women in my family several generations ago, never had their own money, and yes they were kind of trapped, (once they had children.) Then again, they never had to worry about having to pay rent, mortgage, or bills, and they never had to stress about work/a job, and all the demanding bosses and employers expecting you to meet all the targets and goals they set you, (and put up with cunty work colleagues,) whilst also trying to run a home, look after children, AND do most of the domestic chores and wifework.

Women 'back in the day' had more help from family too, and communities were much stronger and tighter. Now, most women have to go out to work, and nursery fees are eye-wateringly high. As are house prices, and the cost of living. Also, many people live miles away from family now, and hands-on help is not available very much.

I know women often come onto these threads and go on about their amazing DH who 'does more than them,' and does all the cooking, and looks after the children more than SHE does, but in reality, most women will be doing it all.

Little wonder then, that many young women are now making the choice to not have children. The young women I know (milennials) who have no children seem much happier, more content, and have much more surplus income and freedom than those who have children.

Basically, being a mother is no picnic these days. So many hurdles and challenges. And EXPENSE! You never have any surplus income when you've got children. Even if you work!!!

The antivax comparison is very apt. It's depressing that the consequence of solving a serious existential problem has later generations convinced that there never was a problem purely because its solution means they've never directly experienced it.

Yes, I agree with this. I think the real culprit is capitalism. Some have been referring to the stage we are in as late stage capitalism - not sure what it really is or what it means for us, but keen to read up on it.

@JHound "Were they doing all those things on one regular working class income in the past though? I don’t believe they were."

Well, yes and no is the answer. It's almost impossible to compare. An average working class couple could very easily get a mortgage and buy a house in the 1970's. A milkman, postman, someone who worked in a factory or a truck driver for example. There was a plethora of new housing estates being built in the 70's and they were almost exclusively bought by young working class couples. Most of the houses were 3 bed with decent gardens and driveways. The days of "rabbit hutch" housing hadn't yet arrived. A good percentage of those couples would have a holiday abroad because package holidays were incredibly cheap. Once kids came along holidays might defer to a caravan by the seaside. Nobody had 2 cars (some people still didn't have 1 car) and of course mobile phones, games consoles and satellite TV didn't exist. Kids hobbies and clubs were minimal and generally confined to Brownies or Scouts and possibly Sunday School or maybe a youth football team. Only the comfortably off took their kids to sports clubs, dance classes, horseriding or violin lessons! Children were not taken on "paid for" days out either. That was a very, very rare treat and there were fewer options anyway. If parents decided to have a day out it would usually be on a Sunday for a drive somewhere interesting (and free) and almost always involve a picnic. There was considerably less discontent, competition or expectation amongst kids back then. And men didn't sit on their arses watching porn or doom scrolling on their phones. For a start it didn't exist and secondly there was always plenty of work inside and outside of the home to do. People didn't pay for DIY and cars were generally old and needed working on.

In many ways, yes, as Dirk Gently says, everything is connected, but only to a degree.

Wanting equal rights and autonomy and legal protections for women against abuse, plus the opportunity for meaningful employment outside of the home, and I mean meaningful in affording a woman the ability to live independently and not be shut out of careers because "ladybrain" will of course have impacted society as a whole, but not because of addressing the fundamental issues that subjugated women in the first place.

It's because capitalism demands exploitation of every situation, regardless of consequence, and that maximum profiteering is held above everything else. Women in the workplace opened up a whole new income stream across the board, but that's not women's fault, it's the knock on effects of having conveniences and shiny trinkets and lifestyles pressure to keep up with "society". It's all extremely complicated at big picture level with pros and cons on each side that still need addressing.

Ultimately feminism evolved to grant women the right to be treated as humans, which has mostly been the default for men since whenever we climbed out of the primordial soup and constructed social groups. (Caveat - I am speaking broadly and know that not all cultures / societies etc, and that men can be dehumanised too, though not usually on the basis ,of reproduction).

These days the economy, the market, whatever you call it is simply an exploitation system, taking from both sexes at the bottom and giving to both sexes at the top via various legally endorsed methods to redistribute wealth. Feminism is just another opportunity for marketing.

Of course, women sometimes end up in bad marriages through no fault of their own. That's why I have always encouraged my dd to ensure that she is financially independent...I would hate to see her trapped in an unhappy relationship because of money, like so many women often are.

It isn't about blaming women at all. It's about emphasising that they shouldn't feel that they have to put up with this shit.

Well yes, because feminism isn’t something that happened once and that’s it. , done. It’s an ongoing thing.Not just to keep improving things , but to keep all the rights we’ve gained before. Continuously. Like I said before, society never caught up.

Feminism never promised an easier life.

So you would divorce him if he has a misfortune of becoming disabled? 🤔

Coming late to this discussion but this notion that "feminism has failed" purely because its rare for a man to be able to support a household on one salary makes me absolutely despair.

The logic is all over the place here: the idea that the ability to be supported by your husband is the only gauge of whether feminism has been effective is laughably wrong.

Also: and just to take the most obvious examples:

• Right to vote
• Right to run for office
• Right to own property/have a bank account
• Right to not be discriminated against at work
• Right to autonomy over your own body
• Right not to be physically assaulted by your husband
• Equal pay
• Access to education

I could go on but you get the picture.

The idea that the right to put your feet up and spend all day cleaning your home is more important than these gains just shows how spoiled and entitled we have become.

The logic behind this nonsense reminds me very much of the antivaxx movement: it's collective amnesia: people who take for granted many of the hard-fought freedoms we have which women literally died for; very similar to people bleating on about vaccine injury because they've forgotten how awful polio was.

If you think being able to earn your own salary, being free to walk out of an abusive marriage, being able to own your own house and have autonomy over how many children you have makes you "worse off than ever" you don't deserve the vote.

Not always — I think they’re in the minority @MrsBennetsPoorNervesAreBack andcsome women unfortunately do get manipulated into very bad relationships sadly 😢 I do think women have to take some responsibility in their choice of relationship, but I am cautious not to completely blame the woman really. I would like to see better education in schools on relationships, and better parenting of boys.

Of course there is further to go. Each generation must continue the fight until true equality is achieved. Tremendous progress has been made, but more needs to be done.

The solution is not to give up and retreat into the inequalities of the past. It is to carry on pushing until we get there.

It isn't at all about being "grandiose" at all. It is about trying to say to women that there is a choice. That it isn't inevitable that the domestic load should all fall at their feet. That they don't have to tolerate sexist men who don't pull their weight. Because there are other, better men out there.

For balance — I think that feminism has definitely afforded women many many many benefits, such as being able to vote, get a bank account, mortgage etc… But I still think we have a long way to go in it being a fair and just society for women. Society still undervalues child rearing, care responsibilities, housework, all the unpaid labour that goes into supporting communities. I think what the OP is getting at is that despite the benefits that feminism has afforded us as women, we’re still just as exhausted, if not moreso in a different way.

I have spoken to both men and women who crave a simpler life.

I'm not without feeling for the women of today, but I wonder how your mum thinks the pressures on women today compare to those they endured during the second world war.

Imagine raising a young family with rationing of food and clothes, bombs dropping in your town and a young husband off overseas in the way of danger. No equal pay, no sex discrimination act, rape in marriage not recognised, couldn't own property without a male guarantor, couldn't continue to work after marriage.

The pressure of social media doesn't really carry too much weight compared.

Things might not be easy for young women and mothers today but by God the weight of all that has gone before in terms of better legal protection and equality does them only good.

I've been happily married for over 25 years, and with my DH for over 30. I don't think I have ever complained about him on MN. I'm very grateful for my marriage, of course, but I wouldn't say I'm proud of it.

I absolutely value my marriage and motherhood. I just happen to value my career and travel etc as well, and I'm deeply grateful for the fact that I didn't have to choose between these things.

It was very different for my mother's generation. She chose marriage and motherhood, and while she adored her family, she never quite got over her deep regrets about the life that she didn't live - the talents that she didn't use, the career that she gave up, the places that she never got to visit and the sense that she hadn't lived her life as fully as she could have done. Her sister, my aunt, made a different choice - she chose the path of a career and the opportunity to live abroad, but that meant that she didn't get married until her fifties and she never had her own children. And now she is old, she really feels the absence of children and grandchildren, and she has deep regrets about that too.

I feel incredibly fortunate that my own generation of women were encouraged to believe that we didn't have to make such difficult choices.

Yes you can. I absolutely do not agree that work that was traditionally women's work is less important. One of the biggest tragedies of history is the way that childcare, housekeeping and care of vulnerable and elderly adults has been derided as unskilled work that holds no economic value. This incredibly skilled and delicate work, mostly done by women, is incredibly undervalued. I absolutely support you if you're in a position to do it and that's what you want to do. But I don't want to do that, and nor does my husband. We run our house very competently in a way that allows both of us to get a share in working outside the home, home-making and parenting, and we are very happy that way. As a feminist, I'm not trying to take away what works for you. But I am saying that feminism is not the reason why some people who want to live the way you do can't.

@ThankYouNigel Did you mean "our" children, home and garden? Because clearly they're not just yours.