Feminism sold a lie - Women, today, are worse off than ever

@pointythings Exactly what we do in our marriage, and have done since Date One.
I did have dates with other men whom "insisted" on paying - I stood my ground of course. I then declined any offer of a second date as I don't like forceful misogynists.
My now husband absolutely respected the fact that I asked to share the drinks costs on our first date as he'd been on dates with women where it was an expectation he paid. Even for full meals on a first date.
I'm pleased he binned them off, too!!

Same. If I were ever in a relationship again (frankly I'm more likely to choose the bear, but still), I would have no problem with going 50/50 on meals and drinks, or alternating who pays.

I have no problem with that situation if both partners in the relationship agree to it and continue to agree to it even once the DC are school age/secondary age/have left home. It's an agreement between two people and so nobody else's business.

The key thing is choice. It used to be the case that when a woman married, her employer expected her to give up work. If not then, then when she had a child. Women had no choice about that, because it was legal to sack someone for no good reason. Nobody wants to go back to that.

If women want to be SAHM forever, they can - but they do need to be aware of the risks. It is a good thing that we live in an age when women are not forced by circumstance to take those risks.

My goodness, no things are not perfect but my goodness they are better. It’s just not over yet.

Women born before you faced the following;

1. Rape was legal within marriage

2. Married women often faced challenges in obtaining loans, as many banks required them to have authorisation from their husbands to open accounts.

3. Legal restrictions limited married women's financial independence.

4. Employers would dismiss women who became pregnant, as there were no protections against dismissal due to pregnancy.

5. See Advert below…….Things are not worse now

@BluntPlumHam I absolutely want equality; I don't want to live off a man.

In the very same way, women looking for men to share the financial load ?

@Gettingbysomehow I fully respect that you would never want to support a man who doesn't work - neither would I.
On that note, do you think it's reasonable for a man to support a woman who doesn't work?

@pointythings @PermanentTemporary What about permanent SAHMs?

I don’t think any woman would actively choose not to be financially independent as a goal in itself (outside a few weirdos in bizarre kink relationships or something). But you might make other choices/have other priorities that result in being dependent. Very risky thing to do.

All can say is THANK GOD I am financially independent or I would have been well and truly stuffed when I divorced husband no 1 and husband no 2 just walked out without explanation after a 20 year marriage.
You just cannot trust men these days. To give up your career in marriage is absolute suicide. Todays men do not want to support a woman and children. I dont want to support a man who does't work either.
When I was a child back in the 60's it was the norm to be a housewife. It isnt any more.
Its very difficult to manage on one salary for most families.
Id never put myself or DS in the position where I couldn't support us.

What evidence do you have for that statement?

@Chinsupmeloves Agreed. But many women don't WANT to be financially independent?

It absolutely important that women have the same opportunities as men and are able to, capable of and excel in careers to be financially independent. This is what has been encouraged for a long time in education and the workforce.

How can this ever be construed as not right?

@Carla786 yes, next time I'm in the library I'm going to see what's available by her. I might be mature enough to appreciate them now 😊.

I checked out The Country Girls trilogy from the library just this week! Must watch....

FWIW, watched an interesting documentary about the Irish author Edna O'Brien, called Blue Road. She was way ahead of her time. Really rammed home how life limiting it used to be for many women, plus she had the added pressure of having the Catholic Church on her back too.

I have returned to work nearly fulltime but I would say no. DH counters that he does bins, cooks evening meals regularly, fixes things and does DIY, cars and finances.

He doesn't do as much child admin, laundry and cleaning as I would like but his contributions are important.

The issue is not feminism OP.

It is the fact that the world is still run by men for men..

This is why women end up doing the majority of the childcare, are penalised at work for having kids and struggle to get employers to accept that flexible working is a good thing.

Add to that the fact that we have an epidemic of violence against women and girls and societies and religions that still see women as inferior to men.

You should be asking why things are not changing faster, not blaming feminism for wanting things to change in the first place.

@ILikeKeirStarmer Have you returned to work yet? Hopefully the dynamic will change... 🙏

Absolutely. My DH and I used to (not) do the housework equally as a working couple. Once I went on maternity leave (and was breastfeeding so made husband less immediately needed in babycare), our dynamic shifted. Now he went to work to " keep a road over our heads" (despite my full maternity pay) and I was at home so did childcare and housework.

We never really got equality back...

And skewed ideas of the roles of rich women too.

The idea that a medieval lady was married off at 13 to breed with no agency in the matter. Whilst it did definitely happen, it was far from the norm. A rich woman would also be educated in several languages, and responsible as head of the household when her husband was away (who had no more choice although some more power). She was also responsible for the management of the household income, keeper of the keys etc. It wasn't a trivial role at all - more like COO of a multimillion pound business.

This isn't to say that those women and rosy lives, but in the context of then vs now, there's definitely pros and cons on both sides.

I'm not joking, no.

Lots of womens work on farms, too. Milking and dairy work was women's work. And while men reaped grain women raked, bundled and stacked it.

We can blame the Industrial Revolution for many things can’t we? People always seem to view these ideas through a middle class lens which is the issue as the very concept of the middle classes is such a recent phenomenon. Prior to the Industrial Revolution everybody worked and there wasn’t a middle class. You were either rich or poor.

When industries began to take men away from the home and families away from their support networks as they moved to cities then households began to be able to consider having a SAHM - that’s when it became a bit of a middle class status symbol to be able to demonstrate that you were such a successful man you could afford to have your wife at home. And it’s been perpetuated from there.

The vast, vast majority of women in human history have always and will always work. This work is often devalued but it is still work.

The above is a somewhat simplistic explanation but the key point is that the concept of a SAHM is a very recent one.

brewers/innkeeps

For a significant part of history brewing/alemaking was specifically a job for women.

And spinning, of course.