To ask you to swerve Shein & Temu

Exactly what? Does that make it alright to buy from them when you know how unethical they are?
I know what its like to be poor, I've been on the lowest income rung in my country (last resort benefit), I still wouldn't have wanted to buy from Temu or Shein if they had existed then.

For the sake of clarity, I would save money on some of the items on ninjahamster[s list by swapping, borrowing, doing without etc. enabling me to spend a bit more on a more ethical choices for things I[d rather not buy second-hand, like a hairbrush. This would not cost me more overall than buying all the items new from an unethical source.

Exactly.

@ninjahamster It seems we view the world the same way.
I don't have a car, don't have foreign holidays (never been on a plane.. wonder how many here can say that?) Also recycle all the time, never have my nails done, quite capable of doing my own, should I wish to.
But eek, we buy from Temu! Foolish us, we should be paying more money to get exactly the same items for more money from businesses who don't disclose where their goods come from originally! BAD us!
Anyway, better finish now & let you pop round to your neighbur's to borrow that hairbrush.. feck's sake!!

Well of the stuff you have said you use it for, I would either source it locally second hand, do without, borrow from a neighbour or swap for an ethical alternative. And it wouldn[t cost me any more than ordering online.

You can't buy things ethically at the same price as Temu and Shein, because they can only be so cheap by using unethical practices.

Yes exactly. I have some clothes from Temu and Shein, and they are amazing. They're comfortable, good sizes, and wash really well. I spent £50 on Temu and got 4 pairs of PJs, 3 dressy tops and a pair of jeans. They're all brilliant. Look at clothes from many top retailers now and it'll say they're made in China/Taiwan/Malaysia... the exact same places your Temu orders come from.

The safety of toys and gadgets is of course another issue. But for clothes I'll always shop here, thanks.

Interesting that you say that, can you post links to websites that sell the things Temu and Shein do, at the same price but ethically?

NinjaHamster your post is full of straw men and does not at all engage with the many suggestions on this thread about alternative means of sourcing life's necessities that are no more expensive than S or T.

I agree with your @DoNoTakeNo but I think you're unreasonable to make the request without any info to back it up. If you're interested have a look at "How to give up fast fashion" by Lauren Bravo which is very interesting and deals not only with over consumerism but also ethical supply chains and how we can sustainability throughout the whole life of a garment (some of which are scarily short term!) It is actually quite difficult to identify companies who are sustainable and ethical and in fact some of the cheapest (brands you mention) but also some of the most expensive brands don't look good when you look at the facts.

In Jan 2024 I started to try to buy far fewer new clothes, last year I only bought 1 roll neck black sweater and a pair of trousers. This year so far I have bought 2 new t-shirts and 1 pair of insulated trousers. All the rest is either secondhand, repaired items I owned, or I decided it was not necessary. Note - this excludes new bras and pants which I have bought new but in moderation and only when needed. Even if I buy new it needs to be GOTS (Global Organis Textile Standard) which makes it more expensive but as I buy fewer items it works out ok.

It also depends on the stage of life and what's happening - so I was winding down form a corporate job that I intended to leave in 2 year's time. I knew I'd need far fewer office clothes so was able to make a deliberate decision to not buy more (even when I really wanted to!) But someone who is switching roles (perhaps from uniform to office clothes) or leaving uni to start a job is at a very different stage.

Sustainable and ethical fashion is really interesting - but tough to stick with!! Someone needs their personal reasons that they believe in to adhere to the principles and that's about what's important to each individual. Interesting and post and thread :)

I think we will have to agree to disagree.

I do probably two temu/shein shops a year. I don’t use it to buy clothes that I then throw away, I use it for clothes I wear regularly. We don’t order one thing, we order a bigger order.
We are on an extremely limited budget (bottom 15% according to Google).
I don’t leave the house so cannot shop in charity shops or mooch shops for the best deals.
We have one car, many other families have two. Many of these cars will be made up of components from dodgy countries.
We rarely buy clothes, many other families buy endless clothes, Xmas pjs, new coats each year, multiple pairs of shoes. All can be manufactured in China.
We don’t update our home decor, we cannot afford that. We don’t have multiple bedding sets, change our curtains, get new cushions. Do you really think a £5 duvet set from Asda will have been manufactured sustainably? Can you guarantee that a TK Maxx purchase hasn’t been manufactured in China?
What about mobile phones? How many people change them yearly? Buy Apple? Buy new tvs? Update laptops when they are still working fine? By the latest iPad?
What about jewellery? Do you know your diamonds are mined ethically?
Recycle? I do. Our council has won awards for their recycling scheme. But what about the councils that ship the waste abroad? Do you lobby about that?
When you food shop, do you only buy locally sourced food? Do you check where the food has travelled from? If you were on the lowest income would you spend £5 on an item that was produced locally rather than £2 on one that came from overseas?
My point is, we all do what we can within our resources. I’ve said many times, in an ideal world I’d have the finances to buy more ethically. But I don’t. And that is a balance I have up weigh up in my mind.
It makes me laugh when I see wealthy people buying ethical produce but then buying giant SUVs, travelling abroad for multiple holidays, getting nails done in salons with dubious practices etc.
We are all contributing to issues.

But to 'support British manufacturing' enough to enable them to make goods that can compete would mean fewer regulations, lower wages and longer working hours.

The truth is, manufacturing is a dirty business. When we had a lot of it, our rivers were heavily polluted, some of our beaches were black, etc. We are STILL cleaning up after over a century of industry.

Yes, there was more work for a population more willing to get its hands dirty, and I speak as, I suspect, one of the few posters who worked for not even minimum wage because it wasn't a thing 30 years ago, on the factory floor.

But today is not yesterday. We don't want the smell, we don't want the dirt, we want proper wages and flexible working hours, but at the same time we want manufacturing back? Not going to happen. Companies don't want to pay to meet more stringent criteria when they don't have to elsewhere.

As I said before, we all want the stuff, but we don't want those production values (or lack thereof) on our doorstep. It's been convenient for decades to ship the unsightly truth of mass production for cheap products somewhere where we can't see it and don't have to manage the waste it produces.

If we had to live and work with manufacturing that could compete with the prices of that which we import, we really wouldn't like it. When we had poorly regulated industry, we fought to clean it up, make it pay better, etc. But the reality of clean, modern, well regulated production is that it costs. And the businesses don't want lose profit by paying it, and the consumers don't want to pay the premium of that cost being passed on.

Decades ago, the decision was made to simply shovel the mess elsewhere, including landfill from our consumption. If we were still producing and having nowhere but our own shores to dispose of our own rubbish, we might be thinking about this a bit more, beyond 'I'm skint, but it's my right.'

The trouble is, we've not just outsourced production, we've outsourced the impact of low cost mass production, and have forgotten/don't want to think about what it actually looks like, and how that pertains to a nation that doesn't want to work for peanuts in an unsafe environment for hours on end and rather likes our rivers having less chemical waste in them, but at the same time wants everything to be cheap as chips.

More stuff on the plane = bigger carbon footprint.
You don't have to think it's a big deal, but you don't seem to actually grasp the facts to be honest.

Its not crap, its good shit.

Of course. BUT I WAS DOING A BIGGER ORDER. So adding a hairbrush was no big deal!

Do you not know anyone you could give two quid to to buy you a hairbrush?

You own a shop, but you don't know how your goods get to you? Have you ever asked? I can't imagine it's a secret.

Calling the discussion "virtue signalling" or "green guilting" isn't exactly you being open minded and willing to learn is it?

Where have I said we shouldn't talk about how goods are transported? I've argued the opposite, that consumers should be able to see where and how goods are produced and shipped. That way they can make properly informed decisions based on fact rather than assumption.

You argued that Temu/Shein are worse because they fly goods rather than sending them by cargo, but they do also use sea freight to transport goods. How do you know that the hairbrush you buy in boots has arrived by sea rather than flown over and wasn't produced in the same factory as the one being sold on T/S? I own a shop and aren't privy to the details of how goods are transported over from the factories.

Again. It was part of an order.
I don’t leave the house so cannot go to shops to find good deals.

You can also buy hairbrushes for £1 in Iceland, £1-£2 in Boots, and £1-£2 in Asda. I'm sure Poundland has similar, as do other supermarkets. You can get combs for 48p too.

So it's not like there aren't cheap hairbrushes freely available in the UK....

Of course it serves a purpose. It is unarguably better to purchase a hairbrush from a local shop that was transported on a cargo ship, than to fly one over from China just for you. Lots of people just don't know this stuff, let alone understand it. We're not talking about British manufacturing, we're talking about transportation. It's literally the easiest thing people can do to make a small change and you think we shouldn't even talk about it? Why?

I'm not sure what part of my post wasn't thoughtful. It's relevant that Governments are eroding people's purchasing choices by not supporting British manufacturing. Consumers don't have the transparency they should have about the true origin of the goods they are buying. Anyone can set themselves up as an ethical, sustainable clothing company. You can look for certifications like 'fair wear' which suggests a company wants to commit to improving working conditions in factories, but it's not a guarantee that no exploitation was involved in the manufacturing process. If a clothing company doesn't own the factory (which is more often than not the case) they have little control over the working conditions.

I'm not sure what purpose 'green guilting' strangers on this thread actually serves?

You didn't even address the topic of conversation. You aren't engaging thoughtfully at all. And other grown ups don't need to be told what to ignore.

Temu and Shein also ship goods by sea freight. What have I written which suggests I am not viewing my own habits through a 'remotely critical lens'?

Complete red herring. The people who are anti-Shein tend also to be the people who don't buy new, who cycle to work, who don't change their phones regularly, who boycott ChatGPT.