Marriages don’t last anymore because..

What a bizarre response. Why all the strawmen arguments?

@Growlybear83

Not at all. People need to work hard to have successful and happy marriages. If they’re not prepared to commit to doing that, I don’t see the point in getting married.

Well, full disclosure I don't see the point of getting married, so maybe not qualified to comment.

But I've always thought the idea of "working hard" at marriage is a bit of an oxymoron? A marriage isn't meant to be hard work. It's meant to be supportive, fun, interesting. If I want "hard work" I'll go out and earn money.

Of course all marriages have ups and downs and you can't expect it to be sunshine and rainbows all the time. But if the duration of the marriage takes on this enormous importance such that is greater than the happiness of the two people involved in it then it it seems to me its outlived its use?

Put simply, a marriage is a great thing when it works, its a nightmare when it doesn't work. Keeping a dead marriage going out of a sense of duty seems the height of futility to me.

My nan never remarried after her divorce (she never wanted to live with a man again.)

My parents split after 10 years together. My dad has been with his partner for just over 30 years and my mother with my step-dad for almost 30.

I mean - look at the king!

I also wish my parents had split a lot earlier. I learned good things about their split but bad things from their relationship.

I often hear misogynists say this and it’s so confusing.

Most of the women I know live off neither the state nor a husband. We have jobs.

Do we not exist as women? Are we unwoman? A new sex class not previously identified? What should our pronouns be if we are no longer women?

Well, exactly. My DC were older teens when everything went tits up, and what they have learned is that it is possible to walk away from a marriage and for things to be better afterwards. They have learned that it is possible to live in a peaceful, stable, happy household where nobody is drunk, shouty and threatening. They have also learned that you don't need a man or a relationship to be happy because I have stayed single - and will continue to be so. There are so many post-marriage models that it really isn't necessary to focus on the 'single mum with five kids by five dads' trope.

One of my friends is ex police and the same happened to her. As for mothers working part time, that’s their choice. The comment men are always hired as they are the best person for the job can be true in some instances. My husband was looking to employ a senior leader. A woman stood head and shoulders above all other candidates and as per equality etc he never asked about children etc. She assured him that overseas travel etc at short notice wouldn’t be an issue. He offered her the job. Once employed this became a huge issue. She was required to go away for 3 weeks (with a week’s notice) which she said as a mother she couldn’t as she didn’t want to leave her young child for that long. He asked if the child would be with his dad and she said yes, that wasn’t the issue. The issue was she didn’t want to be away that long. She resigned and she was replaced by a man. Some women don’t do themselves any favours.

This!!!

”Oh people aren’t willing to compromise!”

Lucky you - you have a spouse willing to compromise and work with you. What if you don’t?!

Saying cohabitation is less stable than marriage makes no sense as it’s a self selecting sample. A lot of married couples see cohabitation as a first step to assess long term compatibility. And more than a few will realise they are actually not suited long term and split.

Almost nobody is going to marry as a “first step” to commitment and to assess long term suitability.

So of course, on paper, marriage is more stable.

People just "can't be bothered" with their marriages like they used to? What, human nature just sort of spontaneously changed? That makes about as much sense as the idea that the obesity rate keeps going up because the entire population got greedier and lazier (which just happened to everyone at once, but is also entirely within everyone's control, and the solution is for them to all stop being greedy and lazy). Your friend just doesn't sound very bright, really - s/he clearly hasn't actually really thought about this at all. Sound like someone who runs on prejudices and assumptions and never really thinks about anything at all.

Yes, I think part of the reason is that being single no longer has to mean destitution for women. Try asking your dim acquaintance why they think three-quarters of divorces are instigated by women.

I think another important factor is the general acceptance of serial monogamy, premarital sex and living together without being married (people used to pretend it was all about morality, but the fact is that as soon as we had the pill, attitudes changed fast). I mean, if leaving your spouse meant never having sex again, perhaps a lot of people would be slower to do it.

Why assume this is the outcome? Some people divorce and remain single or have long, happy and HEALTHY second marriages.

Anything is true when you make it up.

@Horsie yep and how many of us would not have believed that our partners could turn into alcoholics, porn addicts, sex pests, chronic gamblers, work shy, totally useless at domesticity etc- or combinations of !! there’s a lot of very intelligent women on here with great jobs who have been knocked sideways, women who would have thought they made smart choices- the implication is often that we go round choosing complete losers when the reality is that people can change , whether that’s at 3 years, 13 years or 30 years into the relationship

Women have more Independence so can leave but also there is less stigma on divorce so less motivation to compromise (this could be seen as less inclined to put effort in). I guess it depends on what the issue is; I would probably have asked the colleague if they thought women should tolerate ongoing repeated not violent domestic abuse.

If you look at insular (religious) communities where there is still stigma the divorce rates are often low. Men in these group might say it’s because their marriage are more successful, I just think it’s because the women have less options.

Why? Yes you enter marriage expecting it to last but factors change. If factors change in such a way that you are no longer compatible why is it a failure to part?

Is a marriage that lasts till death of one spouse but marred by infidelity, disrespect and complete incompatibility a “success” purely because it lasted? It’s such an odd point of view. I don’t get why “permanence” is the marker of success.

Ignore me - I misread.

@Horsie couldn’t agree with you more - marriage shouldn’t be a penance

I agree in the sense of aspiring to an Instagram lifestyle.

But when I refer to higher expectations in marriage, I mean - expecting more than someone earns an income, who mows the lawn and who doesn't beat you. And I don't think it is a bad thing that women are less likely to be shackled to abusive men for financial or social reasons.

I used to think that, too.

I was in an abusive marriage and then was left by my abuser. I would not have left, because I had swallowed all the lines about divorce being a failure etc. and that you just have to work on it.

Being on the other side if an abusive marriage, it doesn't feel like a failure, it feels like a rebirth. It feels cleansing and like a second chance at peace. I think if your marriage is truly toxic, as mine was no matter what I did, then divorce is a very healthy choice.

I know that there are people who will judge me, as is clear on this thread. They think I've failed or that I didn't try hard enough. And that's fine, I don't care at all, because they have NO idea what they're talking about. Or what went on behind closed doors. If judgement when I meet people is the price to pay for my rebirth, that's OK. And it really does feel like a rebirth. To live without being bullied all the time, it's absolute bliss.

Nowadays, I think it's a pity that so many people remain trapped in bad marriages because of all the stigma and judgement. We can see from this thread that it still exists. Bad marriages that cannot be improved because one party is seriously flawed are VERY bad for your health. Both mentally and physically. We should be encouraging these kinds of marriages to end. It's better for everyone, not a failure.

It's actually typical male behaviour. It happens in relationships at all ages - the men behave incredibly badly so that the women break up with them - making it All Their Fault and making her The Crazy Ex.

I see it in a far more nuanced light, but then I would because my marriage ended due to my husband's addiction and concomitant abusive behaviour. If there was failure, it was his - I can hand on heart say I did everything humanly possible to help him, which resulted in my staying in the marriage too long.

I agree so much with all this.

And the making better choices thing...I guess they've never experienced love-bombing. Or had a front-row seat at a man's mid-life crisis. My friend's husband was so in love with her when they got married, and about a decade on, he changed completely. Drinking heavily, affairs, trouble with the law...horrendous. Of all the couples who I thought might get divorced, they were pretty much the last one I'd have expected. Then there's another couple in that group where the husband is a serial cheater and has been since before they married and had kids, and twenty years on they're still together!!

Sometimes I really think that staying together isn't any indicator of marital quality at all.

Yes, the cognitive dissonance is immense, and yes, the smugness is somewhat tempting fate. I suppose it's to stave off the fact that we know, deep down, we have no control of our marital fate. You can be the best spouse in the world, but ultimately you are only 50% of the equation. Marriage is a truly enormous risk. I had no idea how much, when I got married.

Not at all. People need to work hard to have successful and happy marriages. If they’re not prepared to commit to doing that, I don’t see the point in getting married.

You mean as in the men leave but dont file?

Thanks this is interesting.