Marriages don’t last anymore because..

Because in my case (and other cases I'm familiar with), I would have had to set myself and my career alight in order to keep the family together, while he swanned around creating more housework, ignoring me and the kids and perhaps bringing some exotic STDs home.

But sure, yeah, I could have kept us going if I'd given up my job to dedicate myself to housework, slept with him with no pleasure for me, and just ignored his 'indiscretions' so the kids could say they had mum and dad at home. But does that really sound like a good idea?

Do you really think that it's better for the kids to see that than what we have now - me single, still working (very hard), me and the kids as a family unit, and their dad giving the same amount of effort (ie. a couple of days a month where he takes them to lunch), but not able to benefit from my effort, so they actually see what effort maintaining a relationship takes, and what happens if you don't make it?

I certainly think that too many people (men and women) based relationship choices on lust rather than trust/respect. Easy to do when you're young and randy with hormones jumping around. It's pretty unusual for the guy who "floats your boat" sexually to be the kind of guy who'll still be there in a few decades, once lust is but a faded memory, and you're dealing with real life. Sadly too many people end up not liking their partner, for whatever reason, once the lust has faded! After all, probably most of us has had our fling(s) with the "bad boy" who we know is a waste of space in terms of being unreliable, dishonest, selfish, maybe criminal, etc., but they hit the spot when it comes to sex which is what we need when we're young and horny!

My parents did. They split for a bit then worked things out and things were so much better after and they stayed happily married for another thirty years till one of them passed away, the other never remarried. There was a marked difference in the before and after split, both seemed to make much more effort and from my perspective were much better to be around. I think the idea of a permanent split rattled them enough to make a conscious effort to fix things.

My grandmother once said that in her day (1930s) you married a man because he possessed the ability to look after you, raise your children and do his share of work in the household. That meant working and providing enough for the family to live, as well as the heavy work and the vegetable gardening. She did work as well as an evening barmaid so they did ok.
I was fairly dismissive of that story for many years. I didn’t need my husband to be the dominant partner! I worked and considered myself as contributor! But after time I saw she was right really. My husband works, he does the heavy and dirty chores, he does his share in the house. The turning point came when I was unable to walk for four months after surgery - he did it all, without question and without moaning, all did it well. And never held it over me.
Since then we’ve operated more as a team. For 34 years and counting.

My plan was always to go self employed/have my own business, so that's what I was working towards throughout my 20's It's what I'd have done whether I'd have got married or not and whether I'd had a child or not. So, yes, I'm exactly where I planned to me. My 20's were spent taking professional examinations, getting more qualifications, moving around firm to firm, taking promotions as I went. My last "hurrah" was as finance director in a large Worldwide engineering firm, hundreds of staff, tens of millions turnover, three factories. I couldn't have got higher up the career ladder (well an ever bigger firm probably!).

I couldn't have done that had I had children in my 20's! By prioritising career, I got where I wanted to be. I couldn't have done that job with a child as I didn't even know which country I'd be in, yet alone whether I'd be home to collect a kid from school!

Then gave it up and started my own accountancy practice, employed a few staff, and once that was established, it was time for a child. The practice continued via the staff with little more than supervision by myself over maternity leave, etc - just that I wasn't there to grow and market it, so it stagnated for a few years with no real growth, but then as DS started school, I spent more time on it and started to grow it again as I had the time to. Self employment meant I was flexible for school runs, etc.

I'd have done exactly the same without a child, but probably the business would have grown a bit bigger a bit quicker. I never planned to stay as finance director for the long term. Like all my prior jobs, I was never in one job more than a couple of years, I was highly driven and ambitious. I'd have been self employed aged 35 whether I had a child or not. That was my plan from the day I started in accountancy aged 18!

I agree with your colleague tbh.

1. There are people who should get divorced because they are in an abusive relationship. Which is sad did not get encouraged in old days.

1. It's what your colleague is talking about. We live in a world of technology where people expect instant gratification.

I've just got a new job with a great salary and one of my first thoughts was "now if we separate I won't be on the breadline".

Our relationship is on the rocks and I've genuinely been concerned about how I'd cope.

So I think you are right.

I would say it’s a bit of both.

Too many people choose a life partner they don’t even like (in the hope things will get better).

I feel very sorry for you - you must be surrounded by awful people.

I do not see what you are seeing.

A few reasons (in my opinion)

people are living longer
people change dramatically over 60 years, (you couldn’t even pick a car at 20 that would do you until 80)
people are spending more time at work and are falling in love with colleagues
women have better jobs and are financially able to leave now

Exactly and why women can leave bad marriages now.

Women has little choice back then. When I started work (1974) women were still giving up work because they were getting married. (That was why there was the job vacancy I filled.) My grandma would have been homeless and jobless if she'd left the marriage. My MIL had no say or control of the finances, hadn't worked for years because FIL didn't want her to, hadn't driven for years because FIL constantly criticized her driving. She was effectively trapped in the marriage.

So true. Perhaps I ought to say men would prefer not to reciprocate when they get this labour from women.

You're over-egging it a bit there. Whilst it was "harder" for a woman to have her own bank account or loans, etc., it wasn't impossible. Some financial institutions would do it, but, it was more like Dad's Army days when you had to go and meet the bank manager in person and it was their decision as to whether to open a bank account or give you a loan, depending on how you presented to them, in terms of your persona, wealth, occupation etc. (But that was the same for men too a lot of the time). I certainly know we had a Maiden Aunt who never married, never had children, but who had her own home, ran her own business, etc. Yes, I grant you, things were different and bank accounts/loans weren't the "free for all" they are today, but you can't say that women weren't allowed to have bank accounts and loans - they were, just that it wasn't easy!

I agree that that both of you have a point. I think it's true that women have more financial independence so do not depend on a man for their survival. I also think attitude to relationships have changed and it's more socially acceptible to get a divorce now than it was 100 years ago.

I also think society has become increasingly individualistic, which means that people prioritise their own happiness above the happiness of others. Or place their own happiness in things relating to the self rather than things relating to others.

I also think life isn't as harsh as it once was. There's a lot more provision by the state and charities so the importance of family has declined.

That’s interesting, no impact at all from taking maternity leave? No impact on career progression because you left at 5pm on the dot to pick up your kids? No impact from not being able to travel at the drop of a hat or take time off because your kids were ill?

I've had a good career, I have a great salary, but if I hadn’t chosen to have children I have no doubt I’d have been several rungs up the ladder be now.

I agree with a previous poster who pointed out divorce rates in the UK are generally in decline perhaps due to less marriage and people being older, more sure when they do marry? The divorce rate in Russia is around 70% perhaps higher while in the UK it is about 42% which is less than half, so it seems the majority of married couples do stay together.

I'm in a bit of a bubble and don't really know anyone who has divorced very well to be honest although I know that's unusual. I had a neighbour as a child who divorced but that is the extent of my experience with it.

From what I have read on here and elsewhere I don't believe most people give up on a marriage because they cannot be bothered I suspect most people try really hard to make it work, especially if they have kids. I know women get a lot of flack for initiating most divorces but I think that is usually at the end of the road when they have tried to fix things repeatedly with a willing spouse or not and it's just not fixable are bearable any longer. Women will usually be the one's not to want to go on endlessly in a terrible situation while sometimes men will bury their heads in the sand. Are their a few people who just give up? Perhaps but I think it's a small minority.

I think “not accepting bad behaviour” comes from a position of power though.

If you really, really need your job you’ll be more likely to put up with a bad boss.

If divorce would leave you destitute then you’ll be more likely to put up with a bad husband.

Yes, mine is just as my own mother's was, because we purposely delayed having children until our mid-late 30's to ensure we were in the "right" place career wise that we could go back to our respective careers after maternity leave. Can't speak for my mother, but for me, there was no way I was having a child in my 20's as I spent my 20's having fun as a childless person/couple and concentrating on my career. It's easier to keep and get back into your career if it's established before your maternity leave as you're really not going to be in a good position to do additional training, professional qualifications, etc once you're busy bringing up children.

To add to my previous point - I think there is less stigma around a man leaving a marriage and kids in middle age. As long as he makes a bit of an effort to see his kids once in a while and pays some maintenance people don't judge that as they used to.

The bar for dads being "great dads" is pretty low as is seen on here so often & the ex wives fill in all the extra time & effort with the kids, leaving men feeling able to be free in a way they weren't in the past.

There are fewer marriages to begin with
and more effective birth control
and more women who are savvy to their legal and financial position

basically we don’t have to get lumbered or trapped in a house and relationship with a useless prick if you keep, demand you keep, your options open

long may it continue

Oh men see the value in it alright. Have you not noticed that men rarely leave a relationship without getting another woman lined up? This isn't coincidence. Most know that they can't function without the woman often keeping the show on the road. Living in a hovel with dirty clothes and no decent meals isn't appealing to anyone, man or woman.

I often notice how very rich families always spend an immense amount of money on domestic stuff and other things usually considered to be more feminine occupations. They have loads of housekeepers, cleaners, expensive nannies etc. So there absolutely is a recognition that all of these things have value and yet when a woman is doing them in a domestic setting for her own family nobody seems to think it's worth anything.

I always believed it’s because prior to 1975 when the sex discrimination act was passed in the UK, women were heavily oppressed and weren’t allowed to open a bank account or get a mortgage without a male guarantor and they were expected to leave work if they had children so many married for this reason and were then controlled and financially tied to men so rather than making marriages work they had very little choice.

I was basing my assessment of “people” on real life. MN doesn’t reflect society as a whole, it reflects those who choose to post.

And the majority of posts are by people who are unhappy, worried or having some kind of problem - they probably aren’t at their best.