To Think that Grad & Apprenticeships are now only for Diversity Candidates

My son has 4 Astars in Math, Further Math, Physics and Chemistry. Everybody he knows who got a place had those grades. Some were black or women, but they still had those grades!
Some were rejected because they didn't take FM.

What do you mean by 'a huge problem in getting disadvantaged students in'?

In what way is it a problem?

So he's managed to apply to 100+ schemes but also so many schemes are only open to Black/refugee/ND applications? Both of those things are true?

Organisations only set up those schemes if their intake doesn't reflect the general population, or if they think they would benefit from a more diverse workforce. Often, it's that an organisation sets aside 1 or 2 places for applicants from these categories who might otherwise be deselected via interviews or applications, sometimes because of unconscious bias (e.g. the ND candidate makes less eye contact so appears less confident in their material).

I'm also sorry that your son felt discouraged at not being able to see himself in an advert. When he gets the job, they'll likely be lots of white faces in the room, if that's a worry for him. Though 25-30% of UK students are Black and Global Majority, so cohort demographics are rapidly changing and 20% non-white grad intake would be reflective of this if not a little lower than demographics.

The grad market is tough. It's even tougher if your parents don't know what a global consultancy is. Your son is still starting from a position several strides ahead of others on the starting line. I can fully appreciate that its a demoralising process, but I'm not sure saying "it's so much easier for students from xyz background look at all these schemes for them" is the right response. Maybe he could think about joining a union and trying to improve rights for workers and reduce the power of large employers?

That's a fair point, I do think there are issues with the nuances of diversity schemes. I know an Indian young woman who I would consider quite privileged - her father is a professor, she went to Henrietta Barnet school - who is on an access scheme for a competitive profession. However I think in the main they are a good thing overall.

What are your son's grades please?

But grades are only a part of it. My son got rejected from many grad schemes because he didn't fit the work culture. Or the personality tests. It is a lottery and people with very high grades often do not make it.

I might add we are not disadvantaged or working class in any way except for colour of skin.

That does seem rather unfair. Does the ND requirement require medical evidence? ND is a very vague and broad term these days and many people seem to self identity as it.

My son experienced the same. He applied to many highly competitive graduates roles after graduating (from one of the worse unis, ), and did really well getting to the final stage for three roles.

He said that during the interview, the majority of candidates were white males, but when you look at the pictures of the new recruits, they only represent 20%.

You can turn it around as one wished but they are proportionally less likely to be offered the role every else is equal.

It's everywhere unfortunately now and it isn't necessarily doing anyone any favours.

I recently went through a process for a very senior role. It the sort of role that only very small number of people are appointed to nationally. Over 1000 people applied and went through a very detailed and rigorous 9 stage process. I got down to the last three. I was then told that it was effectively tie break and diversity criteria would be applied. I then got through to the last two (presumably on the strength of being female) and then I didn't get through the final diversity screen so presumably there was another criterion applied. Its ridiculous. I shouldn't even have been awarded additional points for being female since it very much isn't a role that required the use of my vagina. It should always be the best person for the job. If that person is a white male then so be it.

I work at the kind of organisation you are describing.

I can put your mind at rest - our offices are still full of white men.

And though happily our HR are focused on increasing diversity, there are still plenty of white men (and women) coming through our grad schemes.

I have a very ambitious son, he happens to be white. I have no concerns about his future.

If a minority women gets a place ahead of your son I can guarantee she’ll be better qualified than him.

It’s not about the “colour” of the candidate - and frankly diversity hirings are none too keen on certain ethnicities as they are a bit too successful for their liking (see Harvard row).

It’s the nonsense that de-prioritises or eliminates candidates no matter how suitable they are.

ds went for a publishing interview. The (Haitch)R person actually said “The last thing we need is white Oxbridge males”. Ds, who is shyness and awkwardness personified, was really embarrassed and felt he’d only been invited in so somebody could be nasty to him. He didn’t apply for a single other graduate scheme after that for fear of encountering the same. (He did get a job in the end!)

And what about white WORKING CLASS males ( not free school meals or benefits)

Sorry but as someone who recently looked after grads in banking they were still predominantly white middle class men. The ads might only be showing as open to certain groups if they've already received tonnes of applications from white men and they're trying to encourage others to apply.

It's a tough market and it's hard to get in is the issue, nothing to do with 'diversity hires'. And when your son does get a job, he's more likely to be rated higher on his performance and be paid more than equally performing peers from under-represented groups.

What is a disadvantaged student, please?

@Holluschickie your son had the grades clearly! As did I. Which is partly why I didn't want to apply for anything that advertised itself as particularly wanting women and extra points if it was a woman of colour, back in those days.

I don't think of anyone as being a diversity hire unless they applied under a diversity scheme. But it has also been pointed out to me by people appointed under these schemes that they might as well take advantage of what's offered to them, and I have no way of knowing if I was chosen the interview because of my sex or my skin colour.

I know some people think theytrying to address centuries of racism - but doing it through through diversity hiring schemes is making things worse, not better. Why people have got it in their heads that they can fix the past I really don't know. Why can't we all just move forward?

I think that's a kind interpretation of what's going on really - DEI is such a massive industry there's so much work available in it now. That's the real problem - job creation will get you everywhere!

As long as we are spinning on this ball of rock, we need to create nonsense jobs. sigh.

I better go and do some work myself! Yes, it's nonsense!

I’m in Australia, large, global organisation, and my area of it takes on 100 grads each year, and 50-70 interns. We try to get our intake to 50:50 male:female/other (broad definition) by making at least 50:50 offers after interview. Our pool of applicants is more like 60:40, because more students who take finance and related degrees tend to be male, so you could say that it’s slightly better odds to get a job, if you identify as a female.

Is it really true that in the UK a job application initial screening form can stop you progressing through if you are not a certain ethnicity? Am I misunderstanding you? Otherwise how would he know about the restrictions in that global consultancy? That blows my mind.

God you are rude. ‘Not able to handle the competition’? The issue here is that the OP’s son isn’t even deemed eligible to enter the competition.

Excuse me? Yes - in many cases, these are the stated eligibility requirements. She ticks one box (state school) and that’s it. She’s not black, not a refugee, not a traveller, not disabled, not estranged from us, etc etc etc etc

What are your son's grades and where is he studying now? And does he do Further Maths? Because that seems pretty important.

OP will because she can’t accept that candidates like your son can be both higher achieving than her child AND brown.

She was told to not bother was she? Lol.

It’s almost as bad being female now. Dd was filling in an application and points were awarded for various things. She managed to get 1 measly point for going to a comprehensive school, but that was it. More points were awarded for refugee, free school meals, anxiety etc etc. You could only apply if you had I think 12 points.

No matter about academic profile - that was hidden!

As a non-white woman, I objected to these things 25 years ago

I never applied for any of them because I did not want to be the diversity hire

Unfortunately, these things have become entrenched. I was even greeted with surprise recently when I explained to someone - who really should know me better - that I would never apply for those things.

It's really annoying for me because I find it reinforces a stereotype on two levels in my case

As for what happens to the next generation, I'm sorry to say I don't know. There will be stuff that your son can apply for hopefully? So places who expressed that they will give preference on a DEI basis but they won't be exclusive about it.

I am definitely not the only person who thinks it's got ridiculous but it's the kind of view you won't hear expressed very often. I worry about typing it out on here! People have been trained to shout "prejudice" at everything from school. And it gets worse at university from what I can see. It's batshit.

I suspect it will get worse because it takes organisations about 20 years to catch up with what everyone else is thinking. Especially if they're following government!

I wish your son all the best in his job hunting 💫