To Think that Grad & Apprenticeships are now only for Diversity Candidates

My DC is currently looking into work experience/placement/internship in the finance sector. So many are only open to those from deprived backgrounds. Very little room for those in the middle.

@Comtesse I agree that in a tough jobs market, academics isn’t enough. However it’s often the rural poor who suffer the most. No quick bus ride to a myriad of opportunities for them. We also have a society full of part time workers who don’t want full time jobs due to keeping benefits. This also world against young people who want a few hours part time. These jobs are getting difficult to find too.

Yes, I do feel that well informed young people from any background can and should access schemes to help with CVs. I found it interesting that DN of mine always was dead against an internship citing that they are slave labour. University educated parents but ill-informed and dogmatic. Some people will always cut off their noses to spite their faces and DN could not be bothered to contact DHs company and apply for a paid internship. So it’s not just about not knowing it’s about thinking you know it all too.

Academic attainment isn’t enough, that’s what I’m saying

It never has been so no change there. I came from an immigrant family, first one to Uni. Felt very much like an imposter as I sat with Grads who had privileged backgrounds. Yes it was intimidating but I wanted to succeed which really was the significant factor.

Interestingly the privileged grads often dropped out because they had other life choices and family money. I pushed through because frankly I didn't have a choice.

So now my dc might get the chance for opportunities because of the colour of their skin whereas a white working class lad wouldn't.

I think those older people (who struggled through) really need to see the detail behind these schemes as they have often been rushed out to tick a box without assessing the impact.

It was 30 odd years ago for me. I sincerely hope that students these days ARE more informed. And yes I know that internships are now properly paid - as they damn well should be, young people without family money behind them couldn’t take them at the time which was not right.

I’ve wised up a lot since then - I have a senior job, very very well paid, working for a global firm with a big brand name. There was never anything “wrong” with me when I was 20 - I didn’t know any better at the time, I didn’t understand how the game worked, that’s all. I do a lot of career talks now and graduate recruitment, trying to explain that they too can change the script and are capable of much more than they think.

I just wish more bright but clueless working class kids when went to crap comprehensives could find their way through too. Academic attainment isn’t enough, that’s what I’m saying.

I had no idea how my friends got internships. It wasn’t like they get offered around and you either say yes or no.

but I did think it would be more productive and tbh, respectful to just accept what people who have been there and done it tell you rather than argue with them.

@Bambamhoohoo That’s a story of not wanting the jobs that offered internships! It’s not a story about not knowing they exist! She didn’t want the type of work on offer and others did. They were more ambitious. She didn’t avail herself of the opportunities she knew existed. She knew about them. So this is about ambition and decision making.

It’s probably also about “not for the likes of us”. Why let others go for the internships but you aren’t interested? If you don’t want something, fine, but no one else is to blame. These days they pay! They aren’t all in London. They are open to everyone - but not those whose default position is “no thanks” and cannot be bothered to apply. How come grammar dc do? They aren’t all well off. Why not follow and replicate them? Plenty of them are first in family to go to uni. My former neighbour’s dc for example. They managed to work out what to do!

I wish people on this thread would really read and think about this post rather than responding “but why didn’t you do this but why not that but GOOGLE” someone is telling you why they didn’t do it. You don’t need to find ways they could’ve been better. You asked the question and it was answered.

fwiw I was in the same situation and relate very much to the posters experiences

@RubySquid@Pleasealexa yes I had friends who were going to do internships, and summer schemes and things like that - they had been to grammar schools, GDST schools and top boarding schools, their parents had been to university too. I was doing £5/hr jobs over the holidays to help pay my way - didn’t live in London, couldn’t afford summer rent as well. I knew about the milk round, but that was all investment banking (no thanks), accounting (no thanks) or consulting (applied but only had 2 interviews and no offers). I had a very limited understanding of the range of jobs and how I might fit in.

Yes I was super clueless but it’s not untypical of kids with my background. My parents (who left school at 15 and 17 with 6 O levels between then) suggested being a secretary or teacher - that was IT.

There’s a reason that the professions are dominated by people with a middle class background. It’s social replication. Whilst it was years ago for me - I’m early 50s now, it’s still happening. Have a look at https://www.socialmobility.org.uk/ - it’s a very pervasive issue.

Did you not have peers doing this stuff at uni? Careers fairs etc?

My DS now marks “prefer not to say” if asked his sex, race, sexuality etc.

Which is why I think it's sensible to remove identifying factors such as sex, name, race, religion etc and look at the merits alone instead of selecting by characteristics to make a "diverse mix".

Agree

The reality is that if you insisted on a 50 /50 male female hiring of engineers then on a national scale you would end up with lower quality engineers simply because only 17% of engineering graduates are female.

Conversely if you insisted on a 50 / 50 male / female hiring of vets then you would equally have lower quality vets because 80% of Vetinary graduates are female.

This is not sexism but basic maths.

How long ago was that? I can't imagine a scenario now where a student isn't aware of career steps, once in Uni.

They don't live in a bubble so they see their fellow students talking or applying for internships. They are less likely to miss opportunities due to SM. It's an entirely different world with online. The tracker spreadsheet that was linked earlier highlights companies I wasn't aware of so the ability to find out information is way easier.

Even if you're from a deprived background. There's Google and YouTube and now chatgpt?

Kids from a deprived background or whose families haven’t gone to university may well NOT know about careers fairs or internships or grad training schemes. You can be really smart and fantastic at exams and not know the first thing about middle class careers. It doesn’t mean they have wasted that time at university, it just means they don’t have that kind of privilege - yet.

I was like that as a student – I was the first person in my family to go to university and I don’t think I went to the career service once.

I got a decent degree from Oxbridge. My first job was as a secretary because I didn’t know any better - and my family thought it sounded ok.

My career has accelerated massively since - but at the time I was one of those clueless but brainy working class kids who didn’t know anything about graduate jobs either.

Some of the very best welders I have recruited (as apprentices) are female. Their attention to detail is incredible. One is now a quality manager. They could have put this incredible attention to details into becoming a ‘nail tech’ but their earning potential in structural steel is way beyond anything they would earn doing that.

Recruited a female maths graduate and she is now a senior project manager. One of the lads made a comment about her being a diversity hire (arrogant little shit). He was reminded that out of the 10 graduates I recruited that year, she scored the highest at the assessment centre and he scraped through in 10th. When he struggled with a design problem that needed maths, I absolutely made sure he was sent to see her.

White, males dominate most well paid industries, so I honestly don’t see what the problem is by trying to show others that the jobs are for ‘everyone’.

I think showcasing traditional ‘male dominated’ jobs to girls at a young age is really needed. DH works in a very male dominated industry and the few young women coming through are impressive and need to be encouraged. The more we encourage a mix of sexes and backgrounds into every line of work, the less likely we’ll see unfair pay (such as we see in female dominated medicine and nursing).

@Lucyccfc68You did say you showcased especially women etc. No I don’t expect all white males but you have made a point about showcasing groups (other than Asian) that are notoriously difficult to recruit. You cannot force people to be interested in construction and civil engineering. This has been an issue for decades! You might influence a few girls to take physics and maths A level but the media studies girls won’t will they? All the stem careers are fighting for the same minorities and medicine (caring profession) wins out. Or nursing. It’s difficult to see dc wanting these women’s roles as transferring to a construction site. But you can try. In DHs experience few women last the distance to get qualified. Construction does not hold much interest and in the end employers invest in who is fully committed - not whose been told to do it.

Simple. When I first started that 20% stat was at 3%.

Nothing I do has ‘put anyone else off applying’. It shows that we our roles are open to ALL and not just white men/boys. The video featured young people who were male, female, black, white and Asian. Should I just show my 80% white males then in my campaigns?

The biggest issue you have raised is that so few women have suitable degrees in engineering and even worse construction. Both can lead to a well paid career and I have a personal aim to encourage more women into the industry (and especially STEM roles).

I’m going to be actively working with primary schools and their teachers to look at ways to get more girls interesting in engineering and construction. Need to open this up as an exciting possibility rather than me being at careers events and listening to girls talk about the ‘low paid’ roles they aspire to do.

@Lucyccfc68 So why have a video that shows diversity candidates then? That’s a clear bias towards wanting them and subliminally putting others off. My DH used to employ civil and structural engineers. Few women have suitable degrees in engineering and you cannot hire who’s not qualified. Plenty of people were hired from abroad but they too needed the skills. For some reason black engineers from a Caribbean heritage are quite few. Asian heritage - lots. I’ve no idea why this was the case but some ethnic groups like engineering and others don’t see themselves doing it at degree level. Ultimately the right person mattered more than diversity stats.

For those seemingly struggling to understand, it has been proven that more diverse companies make better decisions and have higher returns than their peers who are less diverse i.e. they do better financially. So no, Oxbridge dominated is not the recipe for success.

Not so much:

https://www.wsj.com/finance/investing/diversity-was-supposed-to-make-us-rich-not-so-much-39da6a23

https://www.personneltoday.com/hr/mckinsey-diversity-study-questioned-hand-green/

https://maycontainlies.com/discernment-matters-even-more/

https://qz.com/work/2038103/is-mckinsey-wrong-about-the-financial-benefits-of-diversity

I am an Early Careers Manager and take on around 55 apprentices every year.

The adverts for our roles (videos, case studies etc) showcase a wide range of current apprentices, but especially females and people from black and ethnic minority backgrounds as they are underrepresented in Engineering/Construction.

Industry average for those groups in my industry is around 13% so that’s 87% white men.

I want people to know that the apprenticeship programmes are open to everyone regardless of their background, sex, colour etc.

This years intake was still 80% white makes. The other 20% were NOT diversity hires. They are amazing young people who got their apprenticeship on merit.

McKinsey itself heavily hire from Oxbridge.