Schools admission criteria......

I think we're getting to a point that is too far beyond the thread. (But you are probably unsurprised to hear that I'm not on board with that either) Anyway, I'll bow out here - but I appreciate you just chatting with me as opposed to using my opinion as a springboard for outrage.

A child in DS’s last school (they’re in year 7 now) is in foster care and now goes to grammar school. Both her parents are alcoholics who failed her. DS didn’t want to sit the 11+, but I can’t imagine begrudging her a place over him.

We're an 11+ area. Looked after/ previously looked after children or those with PP have always had a priority to help level their challenges in early education.
All have to 'pass' the 11+ but super selectives may ring fence a small number of places with a slightly lower cut off for LAC/PP. All have LAC/PP as top criteria with ECHP.

The normal grammars all have sibling priority. Obviously the super selectives don't.
Falling birth rates have enlarged catchments slightly over the previous 2/3 bulge years.
Look at distance criteria on offer day, after reallocation and in September. You will see offer distance increasing but you may have to sit it out on a waiting list

And @lessglittermoremud and @LookingforMaryPoppins

SORRY I stand corrected !!

hope this doesn’t distract from debate I can’t edit the post !

Who said it’s fairness? It’s an unfair system but with a small nod to trying to help the most deprived. While working parents who are working class can’t afford tutoring, their kids won’t be as socially disadvantaged as someone whose parent is on long term benefits. Also there needs to be some measure of deprivation because otherwise everyone would say they should qualify.

Also, you say you live a train ride away... realistically, how many PP families are going to be able to afford the train fare so logically, these children applying are likely to be a lot closer than you to the school. So not really effecting your child's ranking

This!
They will be closing grammar schools next because of the same reason they used to justify VAT of private education.
I do hope your child gets a place in the grammar school @LookingforMaryPoppins

So, if it doesn't happen, why is there a priority for these children? And if it does happen, and the principle is fairness, why isn't the threshold high enough to encompass the majority of children who won't have the resources of a tutor?

I'm in 🏴󠁧󠁢󠁳󠁣󠁴󠁿 where we only have state and private, had to google Pupil Premium although I assumed it referred to low income families with children entitled to free school meals.

Literally the opening gambit on the GOV UK website states that PP provides:

funding to improve educational outcomes for disadvantaged pupils in state-funded schools in England.

The funding criteria is based on eligibility for FSM and/or if a child has previously been looked after by state care/local authority.

So you're carping about kids who are or have been in care being given the occasional leg up (which in no way will likely compensate for what they've already been through).

You harp on about 'hard-working' families but there's reason to assume that every child on PP or who's been in care does NOT come from a 'hard-working family'. Even if there was such a correlation, surely the fact that YOUR child comes from a hard-working family is an advantage to them?

Independent schools have only ever been in the reach of a very small minority of people your post is wildly inaccurate to suggest it was every not so.

Pupil Premium students and those in LAC are a very vulnerable group who statistically achieve lower outcomes then their peers. By placing them at the top of the admission policy is an attempt to remove some of this disadvantage. Your privilege and sense of entitlement shines through in your posts. Realistically how many PP or LAC students to you perceive to be “stealing” the places from people like you who you, for some reason have decided are more deserving?

It sounds as if your dd will likely get in tbh as the percentage of children in care/pupil premium will be low.

I am a teacher and have tutored 11+ in the past and really the amount of time and money that many middle class parents spend is shocking - tuition for several years, mock exams, resources, intensive holiday tuition, sitting with their child and talking them through the work/ensuring they understand homework. The fact that children in care/pupil premium are given very slight advantage in the criteria is to try and bring them to an equal level as those that have had all this advantage.

No grammar schools would take into account sibling attendance as they are purely focused on ensuring the most academic children gain entry. It is the risk you take when you send one child there,
not knowing if your subsequent children will gain entry.

I am not keen on the grammar schools system because it often leads to the other schools locally not offering a good education as the parents that are invested in their children’s education put so much effort into getting their children into the selective schools and great teachers being attracted to these schools, it leads to the others becoming ‘sink’ schools.

The 11 plus system is inherently unfair and I have little sympathy for anyone trying to get a place. Where we are the kids are tutored to within an inch of their life. After school, weekends and holidays. Some privately, some in 11 plus centres, of which there are many.

Sounds like the School you have chosen is trying to even the playing field for those on FSM who perhaps come from a family who cannot afford all that extra tuition.

Either way, if your catchment school is so dire, why haven’t you applied to every grammar. For example if Kingston has one, why not apply to every one in Sutton too? That would have made far more sense.

The line has to be drawn somewhere but ime nobody gets in without tutoring so the PP child will not really be advantaged as such. Basically the system is horribly unfair because it depends on a) having parents with enough money for tutoring and b) having parents with enough knowledge about the education system to start to plan for an 11+ education in the first place and c) parents who care about education full stop. So many kids don’t have that, whether or not they are on PP.

You still have to apply for the grammar school on the common application form for secondary schools, which has to be in by the end of October. No one finds out until I believe March if their child has been accepted into the school if their choice.

I agree with this. There won't be that many pupils with pupil premium who will
a) want to go to Grammar school
b) pass the exam

Of course there are some people with low incomes who have high aspirations for their children, know enough about the system to prep their child including paying for workbooks or tutors and help their child pass. Unfortunately the vast majority of children receiving Pupil Premium are going to find that tougher. This slightly levels the playing field. If your child misses out, it is because you live too far away, not because of the huge numbers of PP and adopted kids stealing places.

Wow do you even hear yourself? You think your child who is not in care or pupil premium and all the disadvantages that brings should be above? Do you understand how few children from these backgrounds will pass the 11+.
this criteria has always been there to level the very un level playing field.

if you work hard and are so smart move to an area either closer ir with a better state school.

how is it fair there is a selective school and if you live next door you can’t get in. the reason your sink school is so bad is down to this school. Reap what you sow.

maybe there should be a test for parents too -don’t think you’d pass.

Ours had the 11+ exams in September and results came out last week. Applications go in by end of the month but we won’t know school allocation until March.

100% this^ . Gently @LookingforMaryPoppins - giving you the benefit of the doubt as you do seem genuinely worried about your daughter - it does seem strange that you’re happy for other people to be “bottom of the pile” because they don’t have a sibling at the school but fuming that your daughter maybe the “bottom of the pile” because she has been afforded privileges that many of the children “ahead of her” haven’t been. It would make more sense if you were arguing that it should be purely based on the 11 plus score but that’s not what you’re suggesting. As many other people have already stated numbers of children who are looked after / pay premium will be quite low and certainly looked after children is the first criteria for multiple schools.

I hope your daughter does get into the grammar school she wants to. It is a tough time for kids that age as often this is the first big disappointment they have. My sister lives in a big grammar school area and has 3 kids all in 3 different schools (all took 11 plus only 1 passed for the closest catchment area) - it is a pain but the eldest went to an academy just did their GCSEs and did exceptionally well - once results came out he was almost being headhunted by good 6th forms in the area. I say this to allay your fears about your dc not going to the school her sister goes to. I suspect she will be fine if she works hard and applies herself wherever she goes.

If your daughter has already done and passed the 11+ which for most counties was well before the summer time and we’re now nearly in November surely she’s already been placed in school by now? 👀 or is this post simply a rage bait one ?

Out of interest i looked at the PP numbers for four random Grammar schools:
7%, 7%, 8% and 23%. (The 8% and 23% were the boys and girls schools in the same town- so does one prioritise PP?). National average is 29%.

I teach in a selective school. We have 15 (out of 150) places per year prioritised for PP eligible children who have scored 10 pts lower in the 11+ than the standard passing score. Out of 750 children in the school, years 7 to 11, there are only 32 children who are eligible for PP. That should give you some perspective - your daughter is not going to be pushed out by PP. We ask for a lower score because we recognise that they are likely not to have benefited from tutoring and may also have been to less ‘advantaged’ primary schools, and we actively do outreach to encourage children from more disadvantaged bacngrounds, and we still don’t get more than a few children in each year group (it’s creeping up because of this work, but we’ve still only got 5 PP eligible children in the current year 7). As for Looked After Children (LAC) and Previously Looked After Children (PLAC), who again have priority and lower entry requirements, we have 2 LAC and 3 PLAC children in the whole school. Both of the LAC are cared for through a private fostering arrangement (typically an extended family member). LAC in local authority care are extremely unlikely to be applying to a grammar school, sadly. Schools should absolutely be doing everything they can to open access to selective education so that it benefits more than just the pointy-elbowed middle classes who can afford houses close to the school and pay for tutoring. Otherwise, it’s incredibly hard to justify state-funded selective education.

I thought that was always the criteria. Mine have now moved to uni but I'm sure I was told this when we were waiting for their places.

Are you sure that’s not the order used purely if there are too many applicants that passed the 11 plus?
We’re going through the same at the moment, when we looked around both the grammars available. they both said that if more children ‘pass’ the 11 plus then the over subscription criteria is applied. One of them does put pupil premium/children in care next on the list of priorities but that is only implemented if there are too many children that scored about 75%or above on the exam.
If there are 200 placed at the grammar school and only 200 children pass the exam then the next criteria’s ie pupil premium are not relevant.
Your daughter is only at a disadvantage if too many children who are ‘of standard’ apply for the same grammar then there are places, which is when they will look into other things to work out how to allocate places.
The other grammar we looked around literally take the top third in exam scores and that’s it, no other criteria comes into play.
If you have an academic child, they will do well wherever they go, the grammar schools we looked at aren’t in our city, our child would have to travel an hour each way, but it’s the route they want to go down. Their sibling attends a standard secondary school and is doing really well, it won’t be the end of the world for your younger child if she doesn’t get into the grammar.

I'm sorry but your attitude makes me angry. The disadvantage categories are there for a reason. My son is adopted and was born to the most terrible conditions imaginable. He would never pass an 11 plus (severe adhd most likely caused by his mum taking ilegal drugs while she was pregnant), but deserves priority at other schools because he is at much greater risk of failing in all areas. The financial threshold is incredibly high for pupil premium free school meals, so we are talking about severe poverty. Yes those children deserve a head start. I'm sorry that the alternative is a sink school, but your daughter is still likely to do better than most of the disadvantaged kids that get priority, regardless of what school she goes to.

I don’t believe any state schools should have entry tests. The grammar system is totally outdated and should be scrapped

You will likely find it’s about maximum of about 15, and that in practice it’s around 2-3 children.