Schools admission criteria......

OP, unfortunately I feel both your daughters may be disadvantaged in life, if they are exposed to the views you are giving here?

Children growing up in deprived households have to work twice as hard as the children of 'normal hardworking' families, and if they don't get opportunities to escape the cycle of poverty, their outcomes in life will always be determined before they were even born - and that's all outcomes. Health, education, career...

There's a difference between opportunities being equal, and equitable. If we want good outcomes for the whole of society, an equitable education system is best.

I hope your fears are unfounded and your daughter gets to attend the same school as her sister, but if she doesn't, then throw yourself into making the 'sink school' more equitable. You're clearly an engaged parent.

I understand not wanting your child to be educated at a terrible school. No child should have that and like all public services the education system is a mess right now and that’s painful for everyone. If you’re confronted with that as a reality for your child I get why you might be emotional.

But this thread is nuts. Children in care have appalling outcomes which is why they have preference in education allocations. In these circumstances a child who has experienced adversity at the threshold required for them to be in care and then can pass a test that many people tutor their kids to pass shows they have amazing academic potential and are likely brighter and more resilient than many of their peers.

Equally children entitled to FSM aren’t just working class, they are poor in absolute terms with everything that goes with that. Someone said their parents will be home giving them intensive academic support. Obviously not. If they could they would be working, if they have to accept living on less than £8k a year then they are unlikely to have the means to give a child support through the 11+. Again if a child can cope with this level of adversity then they are likely to be exceptionally bright, more so than children from other families. So yes they should be prioritised from a fairness perspective.

So no one should target their frustration or claim it’s unfair on working families because it’s really not. But equally I wouldn’t want my child in a failing school so I get it and would feel quite desperate. I don’t know what to suggest but applying for a bursary at a selective private school might be an option as the tests tend to be less demanding (I have friends kids at top London schools that weren’t successful in super selective grammars, so that’s not to say private schools are less demanding - it’s just the entrance exams!)

For myself, I’m angry that there is no money for public services and inevitably the social contract will break so far that support for them and wider public goods is on the way out. All the tinkering and gaslighting about education eg. VAT on private schools isn’t helpful public policy giving all kids free breakfast is meaningless. We’re in a state I don’t know how we get out of it.

This thread is far too long to read through all the responses so apologies if this has already been said. Firstly, although technically non-LAC/PLAC or PP children will be ‘bottom of the pile’, in reality the numbers of LAC, PLAC and PP children being admitted to the school are likely to be very low. LAC/PLAC have to come first in ANY oversubscription criteria and PP was added by a number of grammar schools to try to widen access for a very under-represented group (often in exchange for Fair Access Protocol funding in 2018-2020). Secondly, if you look at your local authority’s composite prospectus (should be on their website) it will include a list of every school in the area and their oversubscription criteria and will tell you a) how many pupils were admitted in each category the previous year (so the current Y7 for secondaries) and b) the category in which the last child was admitted. If that category is ‘distance from the school’, it will also tell you how far they lived. Obviously things change year to year but you’ll be able to make a reasonable guess at whether your daughter will actually obtain a place.

But that's not what has happened?

https://www.theguardian.com/education/2025/mar/10/no-exodus-to-state-sector-after-vat-added-to-private-school-fees-say-english-councils

Are you absolutely sure they have changed the criteria? Children in care have always had priority for school admissions in my area. Don't think pupil premium features, only an EHCP naming a specific school, but other factors you don't mention do, so that probably balances out. Most pupils are admitted on the bog standard distance measure. It's very possible you might be okay, but if she fails to get in, I can't see why that's on the face of it less fair than it would have been for a child without an older sibling in the same situation.

Also, bear in mind eligibility for PP is based on criteria that covers 6 years preceding. Which means that, from an income pov, it's not the income the family is necessarily on now (which could be more or less) , but could stretch back to when the child was in reception.

Does anyone know the statistics of how many children with an ehcp travel to mainstream state schools out of area? Just wondering as my dc with ehcp's are at the local comp. We did look at mainstream schools out of the area but found them to be fairly similar to each other. The special needs schools were great but wouldn't take either of my dc. So we went with the local comp so they could stay with their friends.

It might require a low income (£7400 pa net for the UC criteria) but this is then 'made up' by UC so the money available to the family is more. You do realise that £7400 isn't a full time wage? It's not even 16 hours at minimum wage for someone over 25- so, all things being even (number of children, disability status, age of children, age of parent) - the family on UC has more time with their primary school aged child that a parent in a FT NMW role- who may be eligible for UC but would not be eligible for PP.

I don't think that's fair or equitable.

This, and the cut off distance for the furthest away admitted child? You could be panicking unnecessarily

My DS’s non grammar school is very oversubscribed, last year there were 1300 applicants for 280 places. The criteria is LAC, then ECHP then siblings, then distance

The figures for 2025 entry were 3 LAC, 2 ECHP then 115 siblings.

(There is a attached SEN unit but I presume there was a different criteria for those children as there’s definitely more than 2 kids with SEN)

There is no difference here for siblings in and out of catchment and I’m reasonably confident several of those siblings live some distance away (there definitely were a handful in primary school)

So no system is totally fair. Under this criteria an eldest or only child a ten minute walk away could loose out to one whose parents are happy to drive them in, as they happen to older DC!

Are you saying the children of these non-hardworking families get in without passing the exam?

So you want your DC to be a priority over a child in care?

The child in care is already at a massive disadvantage, probably wouldn't have the support that your child has and being offered the opportunity for a better school might be a massive difference in their lives.

Unfortunately it means children with parents that live further away miss out.
Surprisingly, you are not arguing the convenience of having siblings together, which I would understand but that it's unfair to your DC to have kids in care a priority.

Have you got any idea how hard life is for care leavers? You sound ridiculous. No-one should be moaning about being bumped
for them.

Dyslexia is a condition that all schools are expected to support, it wouldn’t qualify a child for an EHCP.

It takes way more than dyslexia to get an EHCP.

How many kids in care will have had an 11+ tutor, if they passed they probably very much deserve the place! Distance always makes up the bulk of the decision

Many grammar schools allow children with EHCPs to attend as a priority intake as long as they have passed the 11+ entry exam.

Does your child not have an EHCP? (You mentioned she’s dyslexic.)

I agree with this.
YABVU many children who are on pupil premium (which now requires an extremely low household income) will have disadvantages that makes it harder to pass the 11 plus. They may be living in poverty in overcrowded accommodation for example. We have a grammer school in our area and most parents who have the money tutor their children to within an inch of their life to get them into the school, some even attend a private primary and then use grammer for secondary. This is not be an option for a child on pupil premium so they are disadvantaged further.
Personally, I think the exam should be changed so it is very difficult to tutor for it, like maybe a CATS test.
As for children in care, I can’t believe that you are even questioning that!

So what have the distances been like for those children given places under the ‘distance to school’ criterion, for the last 4 years? And how does it compare to the distance that you live? Are you sure your child wouldn’t get in under distance? If they didn’t, surely they would be quite high on the waiting list afterwards? At schools near us, there is quite a lot of movement in the waiting lists in the months running up to school starting in September, so you might find that while your dc doesn’t get a place on offers day, they may get a place from the waiting list in September. There is also movement during year 7 - so at a school I know there was a place that came up 2 weeks into September of year 7, and a place that came up at Christmas of year 7 - and there may have been others. Start of year 8 might also be another time when places become available.

So - my advice is try not to panic. Do your research now about previous furthest distances offered, and waiting list movement (the secondary school should be able to help with this, or post on the 11plus forum, or on MN, with questions about the specific schools you are looking at). Your dc may be lucky and get a place on distance, if not, make sure you go on wait lists for the schools you want, and make sure to accept the school you are offered on offer day.

If a child is motivated and supported at home then they can achieve well, at whatever school they go to.

There appear to be 163 grammar schools in England V approx 3000 comps……..

How on earth is in unfair??? Bloody poor people expecting to be able to better their prospects. How dare they! They should be working in care homes and sweeping our streets not dreaming of going to uni…

@Crazybigtoe not necessarily. The parent could be an unpaid carer to their parent/sibling, say, and effectively working full time at that.

Children in Carer- absolutely

I don't think pupil premium should get priority. Why? The criteria is UC plus income less than £7400. Which means less than min wage if they had worked full time, which by default means part time. Which means they have more time with their kids- collect / drop/ do homework etc than family whose parent works FT in low paying job (but just above MW) whose disposable income is likely to be less...and has LESS TIME. These FT working families also aren't in a position to pay for tutoring, but don't have the same time to spend with their kids.

So, I can see why it's a tad annoying if you were in this bracket and a PP child got priority.

Our benefits system means that there is not a huge difference on monthly take home between lots of different scenarios (check it out by plugging figures into 'entitled to' and 'salary calculator ' for families who have no savings.

Is this for real? “I want my child to go to a school which widens inequalities but I’m annoyed at the inequality of it”? Children in care legally have to be prioritised for places (ie first in the admissions criteria) for any State funded school, and if you had any idea of the educational outcomes and reasons behind them for children in care you’d understand that.

Your child is more likely to lose a place on distance than anything else. A 15 minute train ride to the area of the school is quite a distance. Most children are in walking distance of our nearest grammar. If you are already having to travel on train to get to the grammar I find it hard to believe your only other option is a failing secondary. There must be other high schools within that radius of milage that are decent schools.