To think we spend too long ‘parenting’ now, and it’s turned young adults into eternal children?

There is a world of difference between supporting and cosseting and I get where OP is coming from. The former should absolutely be there even for adult offspring where they work hard but struggle financially but yes I see some young family members dossing about the house doing f all while (usually) mum waiting on them, doing laundry etc hand and foot. Mugs.

@Dissappearedupmyownarse so how many 16 yr olds does your work employ these days?

I'm in my mid 40s and a registered professional

I have to agree. I have to say though that just because you pamper or mollycoddle your children a bit, that doesn't mean they will definitely be children forever, will be emotionally teenagers forever, and won't get a job til they're 35.

My 2 - close in age, one academic year apart - were pampered by me and DH a bit, and we did fight their battles for them quite often, and they had most of what they asked for, and we spoiled them a bit. And I did most things for them. (Like they never did household chores, or cooking etc, as I feel you're not a child for a long time and I wanted them to enjoy it....)

It didn't stop them going to University, doing their degree, and then moving out within a few months and living independently - first with friends and then with a partner. They are 30-ish now and never came home. They both have degrees, and well paid professional jobs, and their own home (owned.)

We were quite strict in some ways though, when it came to school, college, and Uni. One DC wanted to leave Uni after the first year, and we said 'no way are you leaving.' They were just getting bored, there weren't any huge issues. They stayed, and were pleased they did, as the second year was much better (and the third.) The other DC didn't want to do their A levels and we said 'yes you will!' Again, quite strict. We didn't allow any kind of bad behaviour or backchat either. They are now sensible, level headed, hardworking, independent adults, and have been since they left Uni. We travelled a lot with them too, which opened their minds a lot, and made them quite adventurous and ambitious.

I have a friend however who did spoil her children, and did everything for them, and let them get away with anything and everything, and pandered to every whim and wish and complaint... She has 3 DC - 2 DD, 1 DS, and they are aged 27 to 34, and they ALL still live at home. The 2 DD have a baby each (well, one is 2 and one is 4.) Both have no partner, as they split before the baby was born. So my friend, her DH, the 3 adult DC, and the 2 little ones all live under one roof, in a 4 bed house.

The son is 34, and has not done more than 3-4 years work since he left sixth form at 17, (didn't complete his A levels,) and lives off her and her DH. Hasn't worked since 2019 currently, as he has depression and anxiety. The older DD is 30, and has worked 10-12 hours a week since she left college at 18, and had her baby at 26, and hasn't worked since. She only worked 10-12 hours a week, as work gives her anxiety, and she 'struggles to be around people.' The other DD is 27, and had worked 20 hours a week or so since about 20 years old, before having a baby at 25, (two years ago.) She doesn't intend to go back to work anytime soon, and handed her notice in at the job she was at.

My friend has bought into all of this, and accepted it, and is allowing these grown adults to continue living like children. At 27, 30, and 34. She works part time herself, and is looking after 3 adult babies, and the 2 little ones half the time too! I fear for the future of her 3 'children.' And the children they are having.

None of the 3 adult DC work, so I don't know how they survive financially, but I do know they are in an awful lot of debt. (High 5 figures.)

(She told me how much debt she and her DH are in before anyone asks how I know!)

(How do I know all the rest? Because she talks to me about it...)

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@TempestTost when were you last served on a till by a 15 or 16 yr old in a supermarket?

Adults fill a lot of these insecure jobs now, that's a huge difference and also different laws for under 16s.

God yes. I never actually thought of it like this but you're right. I don't remember my mum parenting as much as I do

To a point I agree. Motivated kids seem to in many cases which makes me wonder a bit if its as impossible as people make out.

I do think over-regulation in many areas is a factor, it's like they want to drive young people out of seeking employment.

When I think back, my first jobs were picking fruit at 12, and delivering newspapers at about the same age. The second is now done by adults in cars (less environmentally friendly) and the former by itinerant workers. My dp's first job, in the Caribbean, was shovelling gravel for road work at 12!

My kids have managed jobs by about mid teens. The eldest babysat from 12 and became a camp councillor at just 16 - which was massively hard work. Second did not get a first job till 17 but worked as a grocery cashier. Third is still not 16 but does a little babysitting and things like piling wood, mowing lawns, and so on. I have friends whose teens teach swimming lessons or lifeguard.

I think where we find life gets in the way of this stuff we need to try and be thoughtful about making sure there are other ways to materially contribute. Things like cooking meals, managing laundry, yard work, and so on.

There are plenty of men, brought up by the boomer generation, that still can’t wash a sock!

There has, an always will be, an amount of ineffective parenting.

For a generation.

Prior to that you rarely left home until you married and your parents moved back in with you once they got to a certain age.

The emphasis was on teaching your children to be independent though. This is what I notice - that parents don't teach their kids life skills or much at all. All teaching is out sourced. Kids aren't given responsibilities within the home, and instead are allowed to do fuck all whilst parents (Mum) does all the cooking and cleaning and tidying.

Thats the difference. Not whether you moved out due to cheap rents or not.

I agree with that - but this year it is noticeable, at least in this city, that there are fewer retail jobs suitable for 6th formers. None of our local supermarkets are taking on seasonal temp staff. That was how my DS1 got his Tesco job. My goddaughter has just left her regular weekend retail job as she was being pressured into doing too many hours. When I was a 6th former in the 80s almost all of us had a 7/8 hour Saturday job and most of us girls babysat weekly as well. Now many parents won’t hire a local 6th former or student to babysit and the traditional Saturday retail job seems rare.

I was always encouraged to be independent, and as I enjoyed the positive feedback, I leant into it! I had a job at 15 and earned multiples of my friends part time jobs, moved to the other side of the world when I was 18, I supported myself doing various jobs and remain very self sufficient and independent.

Having now had kids, this is not the way I want it to be for my children. With the benefit of hindsight, I realise I was not nearly as mature as I thought myself at 19. I could have done with the benefit of more mature support. While I think I've done reasonably well for myself, I can definitely see my life could have gone in other directions had I had the benefit of support in those late teen/early 20s years of young adulthood rather than focussing on earning money in the here and now, and not looking more long-term

We did it for that year before leaving school as I said to help them learn.

Why would you need a year to learn how to put a wash on though?

I'm not sure this is something you can make generalisations about. In some cases it might be true, in others it might be that a young adult child is genuinely unwell. In other instances an adult child me be living at home with some of the benefits of living with mum and dad but happy and thriving, working and saving. In some cases it might be that there is just no way to afford moving out on their own. Some young people might be out and living on their own but struggling mentally. Also in many other cultures multi-generational living is the norm and not seen as a failure.

I am sure that's part of it.

I've noticed though that in the rural area I live in, the majority of teens have some kind of job. Compared to when my siblings live in the city, where most don't, unless they are immigrant kids, in which care they usually do.

Interestingly the biggest issue for rural kids that I see is not getting their driving licence as young as used to be common so they can't drive to work. The main reason they don't are that there is no longer any school driving classes (which were a thing back in the 70s and 80s here, up into the early 90s,) and insurance companies and government regulations mean most kids need to take a drivers course. And they are not at all cheap and it holds a lot of kids back from accessing driving, and affects their job prospects.

@TempestTost I agree that paid work is great for fostering independence & responsibility but it's really hard to get jobs at 15/16 now.

We did it for that year before leaving school as I said to help them learn.
If anyone was putting on a wash they would generally ask if anyone else had anything to make up a load so it was actually quite efficient.

@Nescafeneeded you do realise, that god forbid any of your DC go to university (as you seem to think that is a bad thing) the Government (depending which country you are in) expect you as parents help fund it

I agree, I also think exposure to hard work or any work in teenagers is lower than ever which affects them when they try to enter the workforce for the first time. I got my first PT job not long after turning 15 (I’m 44 now) because my mum asked the manager when we were out for a family birthday meal and I’d started asking her for specific trainers etc that she thought I could be funding myself. Looking back that job taught me sooo much - a level of resilience re dealing with difficult people, the discipline of time keeping, burning your finger but sucking it up and getting on with it, sticking up for myself with angry chefs (took 2 years) etc. Virtually all of my high school peers had similar 21 hour a week min jobs at 15/16. Quitting because it was “hard” or we felt like it was violating our right to do fuck all just wouldn’t have entered anyone’s head. We wanted the money. However perhaps lack of readily available jobs plays a part as well as a more avoidant attitude to hard work.

@MotherofPufflings No, I just didn't understand the relevance as I didn't see anyone saying it was something that should be done.

@Dissappearedupmyownarse but loads of adults can do those things without having to walk to school at 8.

How old are you can I ask? It would be unusual to employ a 16 yr old in a professional career these days.

@Cherrytree86 but if you are all having the same lunch why would you tell the 14yo they have to make their own, whilst you make lunch for everyone else in the house? Obviously they can muck in with making lunch but seems odd to tell them to make their own. Wouldn’t tell DH to make his own if I was making it for the rest of the family.

I’ve never understood getting a child to do their own laundry either. That can’t be great for economies of scale. Again they can muck in with laundry but not have everyone do it independently

I don't get this high horse attitude of "I had to leave with x,y,z at 18 and I survived." Just because some people have to leave and have minimal family support, doesn't mean it's ideal.

If you are thrown out at that sort of age, you will have to just take whatever work you can get. This will then likely to become a self-fulfilling prophecy - eg. if you get a job in retail, you may work up to being a manager or something and there's nothing wrong with that for many people. But being supported at a critical time could also have meant you could have taken a more ambitious longer term strategy, rather than taking any job to pay the rent. Do you want your kids to survive, or really thrive? The "I'm done parenting, now you're 18 so get a job" attitude is such short-term thinking. Better to think about where they could be at 30 and how to get there. If that means further education or training, or letting them live at home a few extra years, so what? It will pay off in the medium to longer-term.

I didn't say you did, I was clarifying my original post as you seemed to have misunderstood what I was saying.

Yep I mentor young staff and their wants and needs very quickly hit a brick wall with me.
They are utterly convinced that their needs will trump everything else. They are generally lovely and learn quick though, but I cant help think it should have been given to them a bit younger by their parents

I agree OP, I am not sure why so many people keep talking about rent, it's not really about kids moving out specifically, it's about kids becoming adult.

I think most kids go through a very strong streak of wanting to be independent at around age 15, which is also when they are typically most annoying to the rest of the family. I suspect this is the biological drive to separation and independence asserting itself. This is when kids should become more independent at school, get a job, and start to be significant contributors to the household. Not financially, necessarily, but their work should feel not just like "helping" but as if it is really part of making the household function and thrive.

So maybe that could be starting dinner after school, managing the yard work on weekends, taking a younger sibling on the bus to swimming class, or working at a job to earn their own spending money. What is possible will depend on the household and where people live, but the exact form isn't set in stone. It's about contributing to the common, not always being a recipient,

Most younger teens feel proud to help out and like the independence and responsibility. And once they have that, and maybe even are earning their own spending money, that is really motivating and empowering. In my experience parents see a lot of dividends in other parts of their kids lives. Of course they don't grow up immediately but there s a direction of travel.

And no, school work and clubs, for the most part, aren't quite the same, because they are usually still kids being a kind of recipient. (I will say this isn't set in stone, I've seen kids in a few activities like cadets really sprout general independence, but overall activities and hobbies don't seem to have the same effect.)

When kids are not feeling that kind of sense of contribution and independence by about 16, or even a bit before really, i think many become used to being recipients, it's like a bit of a developmental window is missed. They get used to the sense that they will be taken care of and that someone else is ultimately responsible for their well-being and that others need to take action to fulfil their needs.

It is a lot harder now for kids to get that independence overall at the right age - parents almost have to fight to allow those experiences to happen. Fight cultural expectations, among other things. And their own impulses to infantalise teens that are really capable of quite a lot. I do think it can be done though.