Autistic child attacking DD part 2

It is completely insane that the children who will be supporting society in the future come last in this equation. Irrational and unfair. I don't really understand why it is accepted (indeed questioning it is considered the mark of a total monster a lot of the time). That boy shouldn't be tormenting classmates until he gets the support he "needs". He should be out and at home immediately and then put somewhere appropriate.

Ive been on both sides of this.

Both of my children have SEN needs, both very different but very complex.

Child 1, in a SEN class was being picked on by another child, this led to physical attacks. I was told they would be kept apart. Then I found out my child and the other child had been in a small room together, unsupervised and the child strangled my child. The worst part was she was not believed by the school because the child said they didn't strangled her and my children didn't argue back to the teachers about it. I was livid. It took 3 days of me raising merry hell for them to investigated and for them to agree yes that did happen. The school trauma my child still has to this day from that school effects her all the time, in a totally different school.

My other child diagnosed with ASD has previously had very reactive and aggressive behaviour aimed at themselves, teachers and other students. I think what OP is trying to get across with the mums behaviour/parenting is that she's not even trying to redirect the child or do anything. When there was an incident with my child hurting another child, I ALWAYS asked the school to apologise profusely from me to the parent and child and always was concerned about the other child. I kept my child off school so that the school had time to put things in place to protect the other child. Me and school knew he needed specialist education setting but there was a lot of waiting for that but in the meantime I worked with the school. I cared about the effect my child was having on others. Yes my child has SEN, however that doesn't mean that other children should suffer and not be safeguarded.

Document everything in writing.

I wish your daughter nothing but a great school experience at her new school, and a massive well done to you for being so protective and active in getting the best for her. One thing my child 1 still says to me and her school about her school trauma is "They didn't believe me, but my mum did and she stood up for me".

I don't think many people would disagree that the child likely doesn't belong in mainstream school. Unfortunately, it takes far too much time for children who need alternative provision to actually get it and in the meantime, children are let down all over the place.

I don't think the premeditation and vindictiveness of this behaviour indicates delays.

It's not delayed to wipe faeces on another child. You know that.

I don't think there's any point demonising anyone but that kid shouldn't be in a mainstream school.

It IS terrible. It shouldn't be allowed to happen. It's just not appropriate to demonise children who have delays and are probably very distressed (which this behaviour indicates). The school & LA should be doing something for both children. When my ds 'targeted' another child their parent and I joined forces and complained together as that was the only way sadly. But I understand that that's not always possible. School hadn't even told me, I found out from a very angry parent and it really was devastating. It's such broken system and a terrible situation for everyone.

A lot of the guys in HMP Wakefield have no more ability to control themselves than an anti social four year old. There has to come a point at which they are taken out of the lives of innocent people even if it's not their fault they're like that. It is so shit that tiny children like op's daughter are just expected to endure it until the perpetrator is "old enough" for the victim to, what, deserve protection?

*prompting for replies

Somewhere he can't wipe his bloody shit on people? Would you be ok if this happened to your child?

Assistant Headteacher here - this response captures the lot!

The two most important pieces of advice I could give on this is to ensure you are focussed on your child’s wellbeing, as they won’t be able to discuss the other child with you in any meaningful way.

Also make sure you follow through and hold to account - send a ‘thank you’ email afterwards outlining your expectations of them and deadlines. Stick to your word - if you say you’re progressing to Governors, do it. Keep promoting for replies if you need them, but do get as much in writing, if possible.

As these meetings can be quite emotionally charged, do you have anyone else who could go with you to note-take?

Best of luck and well done for advocating so strongly for your daughter.

I don't think the child who is targeted should be expected to understand at all! But I don't think it's fair for adults to judge the other child. The failing is with the SEND system and lack of funding and resources.

I'm just not interested. You are splitting hairs. My intention in my post was clear.

Bottom line: This incident occurred because this child, who was already known to have challenging behaviour, was not adequately supervised.

I find it interesting that a lot of people think the answer is a special school. It's as if they think that it would be ok if this child was smearing poo on a child with a learning disability

and...

A cognitively able child with challenging behaviour does not belong in a LD special school.

You have made the assumption that special schools are only for children with learning difficulties, completely ignoring the other 3 categories of special school. (i don't know if all LAs have 4 categories. I know they all do things differently.)

Independent special schools still have a main area of need. Being independent doesn't negate that. Plenty of independent special schools cater for Learning Difficulties. Others may cater for Communication, or SEMH or deaf/blind.

Special school does not mean learning disability.
Independent special school doesn't mean anything!

I don't think it's fair to expect the victims of a child's behaviour to have the perpetrators feelings at the top of their list of priorities. I wouldn't be teaching my child to put up with that sort of behaviour because the other child might have PDA or whatever, I don't want to teach them they should allow/excuse abuse.

Where have I said autistic children can't be expected to know or understand?
I haven't im pointing out it,s a huge spectrum.

Why would I lie? I've made no such assumption about special schools only catering for cognitive learning disability. However, certainly in my LA, one of the largest in England, the LA maintained special schools all cater for learning difficulties. That's why two of my children have an independent special school named in their EHCPs.

While other children are expected to tolerate being slapped, kicked a smeared with shit.
While those in authority do nothing

Absolutely this - my ds has a PDA profile and it's been extremely damaging when people have called him naughty or devious and people say it's your parenting or boundaries. So many people don't want to understand what it's like from the child's (and parents') perspective. I don't get it.

You've just proved my point there.

High COIN means the children are able to meet age-related expectations, but have communication and interaction needs.

Low COIN is for children with communication and interaction needs that struggle to meat age-related expectations.

If you do actually have a child in a high COIN, then you would know that special schools are not just for low cognitive function. Plenty of children who attend special schools are perfectly able and achieve GCSEs (or local equivalent).

So yes, you are woefully ignorant to assume special schools only cater for cognitive learning disabilities.

I'll stick with my point. I have had a child in an 'LD' school. I have had a child in a 'MLD' school. I have been a governor in both Primary and Secondary phase special schools, and I have been a SEN governor in mainstream infant schools. I have two children in Independent special school (what you'd refer to as 'high COIN').

It really doesn't pay to make assumptions about ignorance.

"Most 4 year olds, NT or ND, other than the most profoundly disabled, are perfectly capable of understanding that deliberately smearing shit on somebody is wrong."

I agree that the vast majority will know it is wrong but they will vary in understanding about how much doing it will upset others.

It’s also unhelpful when posters say that autistic children can’t be expected to know / understand how to behave. Some can, some can’t. But autism does not inherently equal bad behaviour and it’s important to separate out autistic behaviour and poor behaviour generally - which most children, autistic or not, will display at times.

I'll stick with my point. Woefully ignorant.

Special schools for LD are only 1 type of specialist provision. There are different categories and a child without learning difficulties would not go to a LAN (learning and additional needs in my county but they seem to label them differently in different councils). There is no reason to assume a child in a high COIN or SEMH school is cognitivly impaired for instance. There are even specific schools for high-achieving children with SEN who cannot cope in mainstream (whether they are close enough to access or have space available is a whole other gripe).

I can't diagnose from MN but from the description by OP, but if the behaviour is persistent and more than just having no boundaries from parents, it sounds like a SEMH school would be most suitable. If a child needs more supervision then can be achieved in mainstream, then a specialist school can provide that. Again, drastically smaller class sizes and drastically higher adult:child ratio.

Getting a place in a suitable specialist setting takes years. It's not just "shoving them in the nearest special school" ffs.

Agree with you.

People act shocked when a child with a developmental delay behaves developmentally delayed, especially if it doesn't line up with their preconceived expectations.

My mum used to work in supported living and they had to respect people's autonomy, and if they wanted to go out then her job was to help them go out, they weren't prisoners and deserved as close to a normal life as possible, but many of them lacked impulse control and some would smear poo, some would expose their genitals, some would touch themselves. She would obviously curtail this behaviour, but the reason it happens is directly because of their developmental disabilities.

Children are still developing these skills but being developmentally delayed or disordered makes these things harder to grasp and it presents so differently in every child with these conditions.

Again it's a huge spectrum just because your children behave in a certain way doesn't mean all autistic children will I'm not making excuses but sometimes autism cam be a reason
It's unhelpful when posters say well my child is autistic and doesn't behave that way.