Friend and Continued Work Absence

References nowadays seem to just give dates of employment. It’s not usual to supply more information.
i have a friend who was asked for a reference for someone who had been let go for their behaviour. She wanted to say more…
my DS school had a teacher who was off sick for months of the year, came back in July then off again late September for several years.
it cost the school money, they had to lose several TA and it stressed other staff.
and the Ofstead failed that year- teaching deemed adequate

Did not vote.

In answer to your immediate question – what are your motivations? Do you genuinely think that you providing your unsolicited opinion will cause her to rethink anything? Or is this a case of you getting increasingly frustrated and wanting to vent your spleen?

Of course, if she has asked you directly for thoughts or advice, then she may be open to what you have to say. And you can obviously choose how to word what you say to be productive rather than inflammatory.

In response to the substance of your concerns .... I can see where you're coming from. I have a colleague who I suspect has some quite serious mental health issues, and this is placing enormous burdens on all those around them. Between planned absences, reduced working hours, calling in sick (at times one or more times a week), falling out with colleagues over perceived poor treatment, asking colleagues for unreasonable levels of assistance with work ... it's gone well beyond reasonable adjustments in the Equality Act, and is causing enormous problems. Everyone has been patient and endlessly accommodating, and rather than things getting better they are getting worse. As you say, for a teacher, there is the added direct impact on the students, to the extent they end up with a series of supply teachers or other staff having to step in to take over classes at the last minute.

Ok but that 'your' experience and that's not indicative of how everyone will be able to navigate a mental health journey. I have a friend who has just left teaching, she was and is an EXCELLENT teacher loved the kids (and them her) but reached burnout yet is really struggling and trying to have a career change. I did a brief stint in a secondary school and found it way too hard so left. Everyone is different.

I think YANBU in that it does seem the stress of teaching is too much for her. But, she knows that she keeps going off sick. I'm not sure what else you can do or if your opinion would be enough to change her career path given that she seems very set on teaching as a profession. It sounds like she'd carry on anyway and just lose you as a friend. Maybe a supply teacher would work better for her so that she could take things week by week. Or there are other office jobs that you can do with teaching qualifications but maybe more working from home - something in ed tech for example? I think all you can do is be supportive and offer other suggestions if she looks for them.

She is on a salary so could afford therapy privately

Are you privy to her financial outgoings, then?

Do you know what her teacher’s salary is (not great if she’s job hopping and hasn’t progressed)? What her mortgage or rent is? How much she has left every month after all her bills are paid? Where she lives and if that’s an expensive area? If she’s shouldering all the bills on her own or has a partner to share the load?

No, you don’t. You have no idea whether she can afford private therapy. Stop spouting rubbish.

"So people with disabilities should only be able to do certain jobs"

Everyone should only apply for jobs they can fulfill.

Things change yes and employers should adapt where possible, but seems OP's friend isn't in the right profession.

Have had a colleague who'd go off for months but miraculously recover in time not to go past the 6 month mark.
After a short while, the cycle would begin again. It is unfair and some don't play the system.

Also knew someone who was desperate to be a nurse, but had no ounce of empathy, yes she'd studied and qualified but treated patients with disdain.
Any meet ups would be spent with her belittling her patients, but any talk of change of career was met with, but I want an NHS pension.

I disagree with this. Speaking as someone with a history of anxiety / IBS / chronic back pain / CFS / POTs and autism. She is on a salary so could afford therapy privately. I’ve tackled my issues with a mixture of - daily journaling, deep breathing, meditation, a nurosym device, guided hypnotherapy for IBS, and finding an exercise programme that works for my POTs and CFS. It’s totally possible to find a route to recovery that works for you. It’s taken a lot of research and diligence but there are so many free support groups and advice out there. It does get wearing when you see people taking endless time off work but apparently not using that time productively to get better.

I know, right. This kind of response is so frustrating (edit to clarify: not your response, the post you were responding to). This mythical “help” that keeps getting thrown out as a solution to everything. I saw it yesterday on a thread about an autistic adult, as though someone can get “help” to cure their autism.

What kind of “help” do people imagine there is? And from whom?
There IS no “help”.

Something like finance /book keeping etc would be much better suited to her. Often work from home and more flexible hours as long as the job is done. (Ie can work into evening if mornings a problem)
teaching in person every day does not sound suitable for this person.

You need to stop “imagining” and worrying about all these kids. The school and their parents can worry about them. I’m sure the school have good measures in place.
Leave your poor friend alone.

Sigh. Because she had to pick “a profession” to please her family. What would their reaction have been if she hadn’t followed a professional route?

And now she’s stuck in a profession that causes her enough health problems that she can’t continue to do it. But she still has earn a living (and please her family, presumably) - what else is she meant to do?

I don’t see where you’ve said how old she is or what her living situation is. That’s relevant too.

This is a woman suffering from total burnout, why can you not understand that?

What are you on about ? Have you seen the state of NHS mental health services ? Have you seen the vast numbers of charlatans in private counselling services? Stop talking rubbish. There is very limited help out there. Especially for women. I know this.

As someone with 20 years experience in retail management I can assure you that retail work is not the walk in the park you seem to think it is OP! It is often a high pressure, high stress environment with ungrateful and unpleasant customers to deal with. Large retailers also utilise very structured absence management processes so if your friend was to take on a lowly role in Asda (heaven forbid!) and her absence was as you described, she would find she is managed out as quickly as she has been in her education roles.

The point I'm trying to make is that regardless of which industry we are talking about, every employee is vital to the organisation they work for, and all any organisation can do us adhere to the processes they have in place for both recruitment and absence management. That is what these schools have done and what any future employer of you friend will do. It's not up to her to remove herself from the workforce, it's up to her employer to support her where possible and manage her where appropriate.

I've asked in what way the OP helps and supports her friend but there hasn't been a response to that

You clearly have a bee in your bonnet with the OP. It is absolutely possible to have a family expectation that you enter a profession and still choose a profession that you love. Ask me how I know.

You seem overly keen to make excuses for a grown woman who refuses to take responsibility for herself and refuses to accept she can't do the job she wants to do.

First of all you are not her ''friend''....

You stated that she has health issues yet you think it is OK to blame her for needed to take time off because of these issues.

People can't just magically get rid of long term health conditions or disabilities. By definition they are with you for life.

It simply sounds like she is trying to work in spite of her health issues but still has to take time off when her health gets worse.

As someone who also has long term health issues/disability, this sounds like a very familiar pattern.

There is nothing ''unethical'' about being sick/disabled/having long term health conditions.

The best thing that this person can do is try to find a job that offers flexibility and reasonable adjustment such as working from home to help with managing her health and being able to work.

Unfortunately UK workplaces are still very old fashioned and rigid so I can tell you from experience that finding a flexible role is very tricky, not to mention that there is rampant discrimination in recruitment and the workplace for anyone who disclose a health condition/disability...

Reasonable - find the words to say that teaching isn't an appropriate career choice

I missed the bit where she has asked for your opinion, has she asked what you think @GentleWord or are you just interfering?

Well this is all very ableist OP.

maybe you should criticise employers for failing to support your friend rather than relegating all sick and disabled people from professions.

How about re-framing it as what help does she need to be in a position to work consistently? Is she disorganised? Does she have a drinking problem?
there could be lots of things that get her into a position where she becomes overwhelmed and calling in sick is the “easiest” option.
being a teacher is really really hard. It sounds like she cannot cope.

You only feel it now- but why is it such a mission to you to stop her? Do you not feel sorry for the struggle her life must be more than you want to make a point in something that isn’t affecting your own children? I can’t imagine my life trying to be about whether I can face work/ how to find a way to stay home especially if she’s had to fight legal battles and had people on her case!! I’m sure the school has something or figures out a way to put something in place when she’s off. Either be a friend or don’t but she doesn’t need to hear something her life is totally about

As the mother of a child whose teacher did this-I’m with op. My child learnt nothing. When the teacher did come
in the kids just watched films as she ‘didn’t feel up to teaching’. When she wasn’t there the class were babysat. It was awful and I couldn’t get him
out of that school quick enough.

You're right but I don't think there's anything you can do about it.

Oh, and then move on, she's not someone you want to be friends with, clearly - and that's fine.

People will have different views on this depending on their own circumstances. If you are the parent of a child in OP's friend's reception class, you probably have much less sympathy for the absent teacher if it disrupts their child's learning, as a constant stream of supply teachers will mean that the children may have difficulties in bonding with the very temporary supply teachers.

People with friends or family with physical and/or mental health difficulties that mean that they can end up being signed off for long periods of time will only be considering the impact on their friend or family member, not their colleagues and, in this case, children who are adversely affected by these absences.

And employers don’t pay a settlement unless they think they’re likely to loose at tribunal.

This really isn’t true. We paid a settlement a while back and there was a good chance of winning. The reality is the amount of time it took up was untenable and the consequent time costs of SLT plus HR and ICT just mean when an acceptable level was extended we took it.

It’s a balance. Would we have paid the £100k she wanted? Fuck no. We happily paid £30k which is where it ended up to put it to bed.