Genuine question for anti-vaxxers

This just simply isn’t the case, though. and there has been plenty of debate — and nobody has said they are pro all vaccines (though there are people on the thread who are anti all vaccines).

I had the Covid vaccine, for example, but looked at the safety data and explicitly requested Pfizer because there was an increase risk of thrombosis in my age group for Astra Zeneca. DH had AstraZeneca. When she was eligible, I don’t think DD had one.

The question isn’t about being able to weigh up the risks and benefits. It’s that very many people, including on this thread, do not have the scientific or mathematical literacy to do that accurately. Looking up adjutants tells you almost nothing about the vaccine’s safety. Reading the “corporate media” does even less. None of those on the thread who claim to be “doing their own research” actually seem to be able to get basic facts right (eg. on tetanus, “toxic stress” or whatever else); nor are they doing “research” on any of the publically available data clearly set out by health bodies, or they wouldn’t be making elementary mistakes in medical terminology and immunology. So it’s clear that they aren’t in fact well equipped to understand how vaccines work or the safety profile and risk/benefits of different vaccines. For example, there has been plenty of global research done for decades on ideas like “giving single vaccines allows the body’s immune system to adjust”, which, though it sounds like it makes sense to the layperson, is not backed up by immunological research.

Having a reasoned and informed debate requires people to actually be informed — and large numbers of laypeople will claim they are, but not really have read any scientific information or understood basic things about vaccination at all (as evident here). The answer to that is not “people’s misunderstandings and belief in misinformation should be understood and validated so that they can feel they are having a “grey area” debate”. It’s to look at clear and correct information from accurate sources like the relevant public health data. Saying “oh but I don’t trust the data because Big Pharma” is not a reasoned debate either.

I don't suppose you'd know about some of the more likely long term harms. My grandmother was left deaf from measles in the early 20th century. I had it in 1964 and was left partially deaf. I doubt my school friends knew.

The thing about unvaccinated kids is they tend to hang around with other unvaccinated kids. I knew a lot of unvaccinated kids back when my first was very young.

As ever theres a lack of reasonable and reasoned debate on this thread.

It’s not either/or - you can be pro certain vaccines and not so keen on others.

For me, you have to weigh up the benefits vs the risks. I had all my DC vaccinated as babies but I didn’t agree for them to have the Covid vaccine because, frankly, the benefit to them simply wasn’t worth it. In my opinion healthy children did NOT need that vaccine.

This isn’t a very intelligent reply.

The poster has specifically said that she’s done her research and FOR HER doesn’t feel that the risks are outweighed by the benefits.

Of course pharma companies that make the vaccines will recommend them - the whole point of this debate is that people have to give informed consent.

I’m willing to bet you’ve never researched the ingredients of vaccines and blindly follow what you’re told, so I think your criticism of this poster is a bit rich.

This. The OP asked for a reasonable discussion and as usual, what followed was a host of people throwing insults at anyone who is not resolutely pro-vax in all ways.

Personally, I'm wary of vaccines and how they may affect me as I have several allergies and react very badly to flu vaccines in particular. I was also ill after my BCG as a teenager. When my children were tiny, I was worried that they could have severe responses to the vaccines I have issues with, too, given the genetic link to allergies and sensitivities, and waited until they were older and stronger to have them. I still feel that the MMR should be available as individual shots, to reduce the risk of adverse reactions (they do happen!) and to more easily distinguish which, if any, are causing them, especially if one of the parents or close family has a history of allergies/ sensitivities.

I was ill for over a year after my Covid jab, unable to work for 7 months. My husband and 3 other members of his family went into multiple organ failure after they received one of the Covid vaccines; 2 of them, including my husband, have died from the damage. He was increasingly ill and disabled for 3 years, and utterly miserable with little quality of life, until he died last year. It was awful.

Vaccines are not always the miracle they are made out to be. They can and do have adverse effects for some people, and having a considered approach to them should not be demonised in the way that it is.

And now I wait for the shade. Just weigh that against the loss of my husband as a direct result of a vaccination before you throw it, though.

It’s not just about measles, though - if you have DC who are not vaccinated against rubella or mumps, getting it as an adult can lead to infertility (boys and mumps); and stillbirth or foetal deformity (girls/women who might contract rubella whilst pregnant, particularly if travelling in another country where rubella is less controlled).

The other thing about not vaccinating your kids is that you can’t actually control who around you hasn’t vaccinated either!

I remember that thread- the poster whose husband was a GP had phoned him and a little while later he called back to see if the child had gone to hospital

I know I don't need it lol
I'm immune!

If you had measles in your teens and a blood test confirming that you are immune, you shouldn’t need any other vaccination for measles. The NHS is doing a catch-up programme for MMR at the moment, so your GP will be able to arrange for your kids to be caught up if necessary.

Yes she was, very healthy and sporty. She was in hospital for weeks and was skeletal when she came.out.

This is worrying. I could still get both of my older kids jabbed for measles in the single jab, which I may do. I was born in 1979 and did not have the same schedule. I had a single measles jab, no MMR. I had measles in my teens and 15 years later had a blood test to confirm I was immune.

Can you share more about what happened to your friend please? Was she otherwise well?

Like a PP, I’ve been unfortunate enough to suffer dystonia - a type called tardive dyskinesia, caused by medication allergy. This mimicked the twisting motions a person with tetanus might have. My back was twisting upwards for hours and I couldn’t unclench my jaw. It was agony.

The bacterium that causes tetanus lives everywhere, not just in horse manure, and it’s quite happy to kill you.

A friend of mine was not vaccinated as a child and had measles in her 30s. She bloody nearly left 2 kids motherless.

Ahh that makes sense.. I was actually pregnant with our first late 2020/21 and did take the jab and thankfully didn’t have any side effects or get Covid (that I’m aware of). Thinking about it now, this must have swayed my decision to get it again during this second pregnancy..
All the best with the rest of your pregnancy and birth :) such an exciting time x

I always did (and do now that I live in France). I live on a farm and have horses so am more likely than most to have a "deep puncture wound filled with horse manure". I also understand that that's not the only potential source of Clostridium tetani infection and I'm not an idiot who's prepared to risk getting a disease like tetanus when there's a safe and proven vaccine.

I don't disagree at all, times and knowledge has changed. I can remember being in bed with mumps and thank god I was vaccinated to stop it being too damaging.

Ah, sorry, I thought "wasn't" was a typo in your post!

I think to be honest we were used to getting sick and being in bed for a couple of weeks. Nowadays you'd think that was terrible.

Your knowledge on tetanus is bizarre! Who said it's just caused by wounds full of horse manure! I had to have tetanus booster because of a dog bite! Many people have tetanus injections if they sustained cuts or stood on nails, it's a common thing for people in such as the construction industry! It's all sorts of bacterias getting in! If you are a mechanic and cut your hand on a rusty of car you need to be up to date on tetanus! Do not ever tell anyone that tetanus is exclusive to farmers that cover themselves in horse shit!

Er…yes? Even the childhood vaccinations plus the pregnancy booster give some protection (you can see that in the records of recent cases in England, the milder disease courses were in people who had had at least some tetanus vaccinations). But yes, everyone I know goes and gets a booster if they’ve had a gardening injury or a bad animal scratch. My DH had to get one when he got a bad scratch from a cat; when I was pet sitting for a friend’s rabbit I got some bad scratches from it, rang up our GP and the nurse literally had the tetanus booster ready as I walked in the door.

Here’s some current epidemiology on tetanus:

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/tetanus-in-england-annual-reports/tetanus-in-england-2023

There were 5 cases in England in 2023; all were hospitalised, 2 died (that’s a 40% mortality rate). The only case of mild infection was in someone who had been vaccinated but was not up to date with boosters. The others were in unvaccinated people. If you look back through the cases in recent years, almost all injuries were sustained from gardening or cat/animal bites. The biggest risk factor for getting it is not being vaccinated, especially older adults who were born before the vaccination programmes.

The tetanus vaccination has all but eradicated what is a horrendously painful, dangerous disease with a very high mortality rate, which you can get from a minor injury in the garden or an animal scratch or bite — not at all restricted to farmers with deep puncture wounds with manure, as you suggest.

You’re relying not on any form of scientific or medical knowledge here, but on a combination suit of pure dumb luck and other people vaccinating. There’s no logic or reason behind it apart from that. Better to go away and read a few basic biology textbooks and understand these things than posting here.

Do you think many people take this up?

What is it you are asking? I don't know what it is like now as I'm not a kid and don't have any but chicken pox was the thing that patents weren't too worried about us getting when I was a kid of the 80's. It was seen as sooner the better.

Do you think the NHS recommends a tetanus booster every 10 years just for fun, then? They’ve nothing else to spend money on?