Genuine question for anti-vaxxers

The only fact stated to support anti vax is that rarely there have been negative side effects and injury.

Sorry but you can't dismiss that as a 'minor' concern/reason as to why people might choose not to vax. Even the smallest chance of injury is enough to put people off - surely that's evidence enough!?

Sorry, misread your post! I know German measles isn't measles.

I remember feeling so ill, as a child, with measles, mumps, and whooping cough, and German measles was not so severe. Eczema made it hard to tell if I had a rash or not 😂

If pharma didn't sponsor clinical studies there'd be hardly any clinical studies!
Most medical journals now require a data availability statement to be included in manuscripts reporting clinical trial data, informing readers where they can access the trial datasets.

Saying “oh but I don’t trust the data because Big Pharma” is not a reasoned debate either.

Isn’t it? Surely we SHOULD be questioning the source of information and looking at what motivation might be behind it. That’s called critical thinking.

One of the main points is that the ‘data’ we are provided with can be manipulated, and pharmaceutical companies that fund research have skin in the game.

I think the whole pox party thing was going out of fashion even then.

I can remember being sent to play at my next door neighbour's house when I was about 12. She had chicken pox and as I'd had it years before I was 'safe'.

As for rubella, I was not impressed with having to have it when I was about 12 because only girls got the jab and I knew I would not be having children.

A friend's DH didn't get it as a child and caught it from their 3yo. He doesn't 3 weeks in intensive care and was lucky not just to survive but not to lose a leg die to complications. It was months before he could start a phased return to work.

It would be interesting to read opinions of an anti vaxxer whose child died from a preventable disease and see if they still hold the same views or regret their decision. As most can’t regret anything as their child has remained healthy. I guess some may find out in the future if their adult daughters develop cervical cancer when they declined the HPV vaccine. Obviously I hope no-one ever finds themselves in this position but when you make the decision not to vaccinate, you must weigh up how you’d feel if your child succumbed to the illness they chose not to vaccinate against. I guess that’s a whole different feeling than if your child had complications or died from vaccine reaction when you’re simply following medical advice. In the case of not accepting vaccines you’ve gone against medical advice so sure that must feel completely different.

German measles isn't measles. I lived in a small village but there were 2 children who had brain damage caused by measles encephalitis. German measles was considered important for girls to have young so they weren't at risk during pregnancy. Chicken pox parties were a thing as it's more serious in adulthood.

I recall an article about a resurgence of the Black Death - bubonic plague - in a 1900s city. Such was the panic that residents were indeed gathered in a crush outside the Health Department’s door for many days for the limited amounts of immunisations available. (If you’re interested, the infection chain was cut off for this plague by using fire - quite literally burning city lots, houses, rubbish, vermin, and possessions.)

Let’s give an example. The HPV vaccine has a 95% success rate. How will you feel if one of your children get HPV and due to the success of the vaccine, the screening programme is cut right back in the future. How will you feel if your child develops cancer? And do you realise once they are Gillick Competent they can get them behind your back, which plenty do. All those parents out there who don’t know their teenagers are vaccinated……

Nobody is being forced to read this thread or respond to it. It’s hardly ambushing people in the street. And I think it’s pretty obvious why people who tend to vaccinate might be a little concerned about what happens when many other people choose not to.

I think it is very hard to weigh-up the risks of vaccines, especially as a lay-person without expertise.

I don't believe anyone without a PhD in human biochemistry or immunology has the connections to obtain acurate and relevant information, and then would have the knowldege and skills to be able to truly understand the risks that any vaccine ingredients actually pose to a person. This takes YEARS of very specific education and training to obtain and do well.

You are not making a decision based on research because its application of the knowledge in real world situations will be out of your reach. You are making a decision about vaccination because of your gut feeling and how much you trust the experts. That makes sense because it means more to you because its your child, which is something an expert doesn't have to think about.

Probability x harm = Risk and we have grown up in environments where these diseases have not been as common and therefore the perciveved probability is low because of the vaccinated population + advances in healthcare has made us feel safer. I actually don't know how much of that is due to the current vaccine schedule or the historic one, and I don't know where I would be able to find accurate information about how much harm vs good vaccines do.

The only way you can truly know about the experts is whether they get their children vaccinated, and we are not entitiled to know that.

Respectfully, you can 'think' what you want.

Look at it this way, if someone is staunchly pro-vax, people don't ask: 'What research have you done to determine the jab IS right for you?' And asked to explain their reasoning. No, it's just taken as read that they've made an informed decision.

Yet, people think they have the right to ask the unvaxxed (hate the term 'anti-vax!) 'What research have you done to determine the jab is NOT right for you?' And asked to explain their reasoning. Surely, as above, it just needs to be taken as read that they've made an informed decision?

But that was the point of the thread? To ask them why and What’s the alternative if we all just stopped vaccinating!

None of them can ever answer this question or site a single plausible piece of evidence.
The whole point of a debate is to come armed with evidence to support your claim. They NEVER have ANY.

The only fact stated to support anti vax is that rarely there have been negative side effects and injury. That is something that should be looked into further, absolutely. But all the evidence suggests that the risk is massively outweighed.

You can’t have a debate if you have nothing to support your argument. It’s what we’d all expect anyway but perhaps it should make you think.

Keep your fingers crossed hoping other children’s vaccinations get you through.

I think @FunMustard makes a valid and reasonable point and does not sound entitled.

I always think if someone quotes facts and figures here, they should be prepared to put a link to their source material. If they won’t do it, I tend to think they have made it up or guessed or misremembered.

How can you have an intelligent discussion with someone who says they "did their research" but then declines to expand upon what that research was?

Gee, I dunno, maybe you could just accept what they're saying? They have done THEIR research, meaning, they've looked into a topic far enough to satisfy their own need to make an informed decision. That doesn't remotely mean they then have to share/justify said research with all and sundry. I mean, seriously, entitled much!?

You haven’t answered the question though?

My personal favourite was the comment about how they had ‘noticed’ that their unvaccinated children ‘seemed healthier’ than vaccinated ones and so that was the ‘data’ they were ‘going with.’

I’m pretty sure most of them will happily knock down people on their way to get first back in the line for vaccinations - which might not still work once those diseases have had a good old chance to replicate and mutate.

Anti Vaxxers are an Oxymoron - they can’t know the results of their choice until we fully lose herd immunity when enough people stop vaccinating. Thanks to people not vaccinating we have already seen the recurrence of Measles and Whooping Cough (which can both kill, especially newborns, and/or cause horrendous complications). If they carry on then we will see many other diseases return as well. Then maybe they will realise that the very small risks associated with vaccinations were nothing compared to these diseases at full strength - which were once frightening enough to cause the invention of vaccines in the first place. If they are so survivable then why do vaccinations exist?

How can you have an intelligent discussion with someone who says they "did their research" but then declines to expand upon what that research was?

Thus far, the only person who has expanded even slightly on that, has basically said that they don't believe that potential complications from illness would be worse than the potential complications from vaccine injury. Because they don't trust the information they have.

What research have you done? I did research. I read up on the stats around deaths and serious complications from illness, and the stats around deaths and serious complications from vaccine injury. As a non-medical or scientific person, I have to go with the information I have that is easily digestible and interpretable for my level of understanding. And that is from medical sources. Not anecdata about how every kid I know that is vaccinated seems to get chicken pox or whatever.

Polio can be spread by sewage. If a person defecates in a toilet and it is flushed away that infects the sewage system and if an unvaccinated person comes into contact with the effluent they could contract polio. So vaccinating yourself not only protects you but also a whole community. Polio is devastating just look it up. We are a multinational country and there a quite a few countries that still have polio. Therefore someone unvaccinated could come back from a holiday and infect a large number of the unvaccinated population.

Chicken pox isn't always mild either. A child in my twins class caught it and nearly died of sepsis from an infected spot. This was 3 years ago. We're not talking 1960s or something

I wasn’t allowed most vaccinations as a child for medical reasons (complications caused during a very long labour). As a result I got sick with everything - chicken pox, measles, mumps, shingles etc. I was extremely ill with whooping cough and have had asthma ever since.

I am now in my 50s. Whilst chicken pox etc can be fairly mild, I think people not giving their kids the measles and whooping cough vaccinations are underestimating just how serious they can be if you catch them.