Genuine question for anti-vaxxers

I've had full vaccination schedule myself and I've chosen the same for my child. But I find the growing authoritarianism quite terrifying, and the strange deference to "the experts" as if medicine has never involved experts administering completely bumkum treatments. People need to be free to make their own healthcare decisions, including decisions about what is injected into their own and their children's bodies. That means some people will make what you believe is the wrong choice. They don't need to be browbeaten into submission. Their body, their choice.

I wonder how far we are from being able to stop vaccinating anyone for polio? We no longer give a small pox vaccine. If we could get the few children in afghan and Pakistan protected we’d eradicate it. I think northern Nigeria is now clear. Bloody Taliban.

There are a few other tropical diseases that could be wiped out in the next 10-20 years, would be amazing, particularly if we can get rid of malaria.

I just think the potential of vaccination is so huge we should take the time risks.

You haven't answered the op's question though.

I never suggested you could get measles from a dirty house. I said the risk of serious complication from measles is reduced for a child living in the developed world with sanitation and good nutrition, mainly Vitamin A, is very low.

I don't think we can avoid measles. I referred to serious complications from measles, not measles itself.

@user1471538275

If a child is in the developed world and has access to sanitation and good nutrition, their risk of complications from something like measles is very low.

I'm afraid I don't agree with this statement. Certainly the risk of complications is lower than in the development world but there is still a very real risk of long term harm. My son contracted chickenpox at 5 months old (fully breastfed, mother immune) and was really quite ill and at risk of encephalitis. My husband contracted mumps almost 20 years ago. Mumps is now so rare that none of the doctors in the hospital he ended up in had seen it before and had to call another hospital for advice. He was told that it would be very likely to have affected his fertility (it didn't).

ALL interventions carry a risk and we know that there is a very, very small risk of a child having an adverse reaction to a vaccine - that's why they're done in clinic - but it really is very, very small, much smaller than the risk from the illness.

I studied an MSc a few years ago and a lot of the other students were from countries in the developing world. They were astounded that, over here, we decline vaccines. They see harm from the illnesses we vaccinate against, regularly in their home country.

You don't get measles from living in a dirty house, you get it from people who've got measles. Unvaccinated children in Western countries have a better chance of avoiding measles because of herd immunity, which is built by responsible parents who vaccinated their children unless there's a medical reason not to.

Thanks for your comment. What were the reasons that you almost died from measles? Pneumonia?

I still think people are conflating people who are staunchly against any vaccinations and people who are not against vaccines but despise being told what to do by faceless entities like the government. I fall into the latter category. I've had all my vaccines, include the three covid ones (two main ones and a booster), but if a covid vaccine was offered to me today, I'd decline. I've recently had a flu jab because I'm pregnant. I'm not prone to being struck down, but with baby and my immune system being under load, I took it. I'm due my RSV and whooping cough vaccine soon.

I was in the western world and my mother was a nurse, our home was perfectly sanitary and we ate very well. I still got measles, it was an epidemic, and I nearly died. At the time many children died from measles or were permanently brain damaged, left hearing impaired, etc. It's a virus spread through sneezing and droplets and extremely contagious you cannot prevent it by hygiene or eating well, in a school it spreads like wildfire.

I think part of the problem is that the debate is so black and white. There is no willingness to allow people to discuss the grey areas. You either get full vaccinations or you are an idiot endangering your child and that makes people more obstinate.

My first child had a bad reaction to his first set of immunisations. My GP said it was just a coincidence but referred us to an immunologist anyway. He was brilliant and said " of course it's not a coincidence!" He did blood tests on my child and me and found exactly what the problem was. My child's vaccines were then administered much more slowly and individually with lots of checks between. The dr then predicted that the same problems would occur with our 2nd child and arranged to take care of him and his vaccination schedule which was great because it did happen snd more severely. We were able to be seen by a paediatrician more easily etc.

If our GP had stuck to her " ifs a coincidence: line and not referred then possibly we would have refused further vaccines.

Vaccine damage is a thing that noone wants to discuss.

I just think more open discussion of the issues would allay more people's fears resulting in more of an uptake.

I have a friend who is antivax. It started when she had two very successful home births and then progressed to three further home births with no midwife present. I think this somehow led her to conclude not that she was a very lucky woman who had easy uncomplicated labours, but that no Western medicine of any kind has any value whatsoever. But I alsoremember her saying blithely at the end of a long rant about the evils of Western medicine, "and they'll be fine anyway because of herd immunity" which still stands out as an incredibly selfish and stupid thing to say from someone who in all other respects of their life is the absolute opposite of stupid and selfish. She also told me that because bones knit themselves it's not actually necessary to go to a doctor to set them, and shrugged when I asked if she'd seen whilst on her many travels in less wealthy countries the limps and deformities that can result from a badly or non-set fracture.

Interestingly, when one of her kids got very severe tonsillitis and needed a tonsillectomy, she was at A&E signing consent forms like a shot, just as any other parent would be. Finished the antibiotics right up, too.

It's extremely flawed! If their child gets ill it's likely because they chose not to vaccinate. So still just as much of a choice as the alternative.

People who have never had adverse effects that damage their health from medication don't (or won't) understand why others are cautious. I find it a bit narrow minded in some ways.

Unless you've experienced it, it's easy to be dismissive. You often hear people saying it won't ever happen to them, and then it does.

Protecting babies - the best option has been immunising their mothers, which has worked well for whooping cough. They are adults who can make the choice for themselves and their baby - again an individual decision.

There are lots of people on this thread being very rude to @ThejoyofNC If you actually want people to explain why they have not vaccinated their children, it would be good if you listened to them. Instead there is hectoring and insults being thrown - respect other people's choices.

If a child is in the developed world and has access to sanitation and good nutrition, their risk of complications from something like measles is very low.

If their risk of vaccine damage is 0, and their risk of complications from measles very low, then vaccinating decreases the risk from measles very minimally, whilst raising the risk of vaccine damage by a significant amount, from 0 to anything more than zero.

MN is social media.
Social media is any online form of social interaction.

How about protecting babies by vaccinating older children with well tried and tested vaccines? And now people at lesser risk are not vaccinated against covid also partly because recent variants are less dangerous.

I'm not anti-vax per se,,especially for ny children.

But I am scared of the side effects making my movement disorder symptoms worse. I was permanently harmed and injured by an off label antipsychotic prescribed for severe insomnia and anxiety after a head injury and post concussion syndrome, and it gave me a neurological movement disorder called tardive dyskinesia.

So, I am a bit biased i guess, and probably slightly cynical of Big Pharma, hence me being overly cautious of medication and things like vaccinations.

I'm also pretty much a bit unique in my views but as they have been tarnished by my experience, I don't care if others don't agree with me.

Posting on social media saying that you're not on social media. How much of the rest of your post is lies?

We live in an individualistic society and generally we have medical procedures for our own good, not for the benefit of others.

This makes the concept of herd immunity difficult, because it is a communal good, which will come at a price to some individuals.

I do not agree with putting one group at risk (male teenagers) if there is little benefit to their own health and a higher risk to them(covid vaccine) in order to benefit a different group in society (older people).

Will you still be happy with your choices if your children or grand children catch some of the really awful childhood diseases? At present many people are relying on the fact that other people get their children vaccinated and the herd immunity then protects their children from epidemics, but the balance is changing with many measles cases recently. I'm another who had measles badly as a young child, before the vaccine was available, I was really ill for weeks and could easily have died you wouldn't wish that on your children.

You did an awful lot of research. Seriously? Are you a trained immunologist or pharmacologist?

It is highly irresponsible to not vaccinate your children unless there is a medical reason why they should not have that vaccine. If you had any understanding of history you would know why vaccines are crucial.

How interesting that you know more than the scientists and medical professionals who recommend these vaccines.

Which ingredients are you specifically concerned about?