Genuine question for anti-vaxxers

Despite posting on Mumsnet …

I’m from a generation that remembers measles. I had measles and can remember it, I presume because it was so awful. I know two people who have relatives who were left disabled by measles. Why anyone would want to risk their child suffering from measles is beyond me.

The notes are just to say that these are estimated, not confirmed cases - confirmed cases are further up in the data

Estimated is always higher than confirmed, sometimes considerably so.

From UK mortality data from measles (linked above)

2020
698
1
1 adult death, late effect of measles

2021
360
2
2 adult deaths, late effect of measles

2022
735
1
1 adult death from SSPE

2023
1,619
4
3 adult deaths, late effects of measles. 1 child death from SSPE

2024
11,162
[note 1]
5
3 adult deaths, late effects of measles. 1 adult death from SSPE and 1 acute measles death in a child with an underlying immunological problem

2025
3,268
[note 1]
[note 2]
2
1 adult death, late effect of measles. 1 acute measles death in a child with an underlying immunological problem

I have never had the Covid jab or allowed my children to have it, yet I have allowed all other vaccines. My reasons are weighing up the risk/benefit ratio. We have had Covid and not had any major ill effects other than a bad cold. I did not like the way the vaccine was forced upon people, not being able to travel without one etc when it was clear it was not preventing you spreading it to others (which was later revealed). I feel the risks of it outweigh any potential benefits (of which there appear to be none, my partner had the vaccine and he has suffered worse).

If you mean the poor child who died in Liverpool in July and whose death was publicised as part of a campaign to encourage parents to vaccinate their children against measles, can you show me anywhere where it was reported that the child was vaccinated, because the reports I have read say it isn't known whether they were vaccinated or not.

I'll quote you as it's near the bottom but all of the people saying this must think they're so clever with their "gotcha".

Normal people can do research.

Plenty of highly qualified people are anti-vax and have written papers.

What exactly are you trying to prove?

Yes, it's children who are vaccinated who die. There was a child I think last month who was unvaccinated for measles and died from a measles complication. That interests me but there isn't information on whether they had comorbidities.

My father had polio as a child and lived with the physical consequences of the disease until his death at 72. In his later years, he also suffered from post polio syndrome which was very debilitating.
My MIL had TB in the late 1950s and spent a year separated from her baby and husband in a sanatorium.
My DC are fully vaccinated and I don’t regret those choices now, as they reach adulthood. It’s easier to be anti vax in the 21st century as the diseases that raged in earlier times have been more or less conquered thanks to herd immunity, better medicines and better living conditions. As antibiotics continue to lose efficacy and we lose herd immunity, people will, once again, return to vaccinations. Unfortunately children will die first.
The other factor is the distrust of authority and government which is increasingly widespread. Everyone can promote their views and opinions on social media where they are viewed by anyone who wants their opinion confirmed.

Not getting at you OP but just flagging that in the early 1950s there were 8000 paralytic polio cases (ie not just asymptomatic polio) per year which then reduced following the vaccine take up. My great uncle was in calipers all his life due to polio in childhood.

I know a woman with two children, she's a fierce anti-vaxxer. Same with the covid vaccine, refused it.

She's more than happy jabbing herself with mounjaro, though...

Exactly, I think it's a prophylactic health measure under a blanket policy, which I totally get, but that the NHS don't have the capacity to do it on a case by case basis.

Were I'm living in a country with sanitation and nutrition being optimal, would I rely on vaccines instead?
Yes.

Do I live in that situation?
No.

So, coming back to my original point, I have two children in the developed world on a healthful diet being breastfed to full-term (so, although temporary, the passive immunity and maternal IgA conference) and lack of toxic stress, I believe that my children are a very low risk, even comparatively low to their peers, of severe complications that would warrant a prophylactic intervention, that I choose not to utilise it, even though it's readily available.

And I would love to take them into the surgery and have them jabbed, but I just cannot find it conscionable to do so.

But no unvaccinated children have died of measles in the UK since 2000. I don't know what you mean when you say that it's always the vaccinated child who dies and the unvaccinated one is fine.

I looked into each individual vaccine and the ingredients it contained.

What does this even mean? Do you also research the ingredients of paracetamol or not give your children antibiotics? Where does it end? Or is it only vaccines.

The one friend of mine who chose not to vaccinate either of her children said her reasons were all to do with having measles, mumps, chickenpox and whooping cough as a child and coming to no harm.

However, the truth in my opinion is that she was too afraid to get them vaccinated and decided to rely on herd immunity.

Spectacularly selfish.

My brother almost died from Whooping Cough as a child in the 1970’s.

Whilst I don’t share your views, I find your second paragraph really interesting, as I think it really clearly articulates the choices you’ve made and I can see how someone would believe that reasoning. Out of interest, do you think you’ve been able to come to this conclusion for yourself as a result of the vast majority of people being vaccinated and would you feel differently if you were living somewhere when / where there wasn’t a large uptake, which therefore puts you at far greater risk? I guess that is to say, would you be anti-vaccines generally or on a case by case basis, which perhaps largely depends on the choices others are making? (I hope not to come across as judgmental, I’m genuinely intrigued).

So you've never found out what caused that reaction?

I see this as one of the failings which means I don't use vaccines.

We need to know. If it's a totally unknown risk I won't do it.

Risk of complication, I believe is really low, but it's not zero.

For my kids it's zero an I'd like to keep it that way.

These are the cases that would change my mind.

Were the kids totally unvaccinated?

If I saw in the paper 'all unvaccinated children in an area die from a VPD' I'd probably take my kids to be vaccinated tomorrow, but it's usually 'one kid dies of a VPD and it wasn't the unvaccinated kid, he's healthy but we're blaming him'

That keeps me from doing it

The fear that my child will die from a VPD and then my mistake is paraded in the daily mail terrifies me, yet I still can't do it. I just can't find evidence my children are more at risk when they're healthier than their peers.

Or serious complications from the vaccine.

Does the sentence "I had a bad reaction to the MMR" not make sense to you? That's what I was told. How old do you think I was when I had it?

Thanks. I get your side as well. Of course you're going to choose a vaccine if it's 'take this jab or die a horrible death'

I just don't think the horrible death part is that much of a threat, based on statistics alone.

There are anti-vax medical professionals who have a medical background so this is just objectively false.

What did medical professionals say caused your adverse reaction?